(Different) Models of Leadership + Nina Simons, Bioneer Co-Founder

Women of Ambition

Alyssa Calder Hulme: [00:00:00] Welcome to the women of ambition podcast. I'm your host, Alyssa Culler Hume. And today we have a fantastic guest on our show. Nina Simons is co founder and chief relationship officer at Bioneers and leads it's every woman leadership program throughout her career, spanning the nonprofit, social entrepreneurship, corporate, and.

Philanthropic sectors. Nina has worked with nearly a thousand diverse women leaders across disciplines, race, class, age, and orientation to create conditions for mutual learning, trust, and leadership development. She co edited Moonrise, The Power of Women Leading from the Heart and authored Nature, Culture, and the Sacred.

A Woman Listens for Leadership, which is the book we're going to talk about here today, was released as a second edition in 2022 with an accompanying discussion guide and embodied. Practice. Nina received the Goy Peace Award with her husband and partner, Kenny Ausubel for pioneering work to promote nature inspired innovations for restoring the earth and our [00:01:00] human community, which is pretty incredible.

So thank you so much for being here, Nina.

Nina Simons: Thank you, Alyssa. It's great to be with you. Um,

Alyssa Calder Hulme: this is your beautiful book. You can see it behind her if you're watching the video. Um, it's beautiful. This artwork is fantastic. Um, and I, I'll just start by saying that, you know, I, I get reached out to by a lot of PR teams and different people wanting me to promote the material.

And, I'm really picky, but yours is the first one that I, I read and I really loved and am deciding to share it because, um, I think what your, your message here is, is really incredible. It's really holistic. And I think it's something that we really need to talk about. So thank you so much for, for me, for writing this book and publishing it.

And. Talking about being like a feminist as a white woman who's trying to, um, decolonize perspectives, understand privilege, um, and also, [00:02:00] um, someone who's been in that space for so long. You have a lot of wisdom to share and a lot of experience. And I, I'm just really grateful that you're putting that out in the world and being vulnerable.

So thank

Nina Simons: you. Oh, it's my honor and privilege. I feel really grateful to get to do it. Thank you, Elisa. Okay,

Alyssa Calder Hulme: so, I, so this book is about women's leadership, um, and you talk about it from your own personal experiences and then in working with other, with other leaders in, In lots of different communities, um, can we start maybe talking about, uh, what Bioneers is and where that word comes from, because I was really intrigued by that.

Nina Simons: Sure. Sure. Well, the word was coined by my husband and partner because it's a contraction of biological pioneers. Okay. And the idea behind it was he started looking to find really innovative and effective [00:03:00] approaches. To healing our relationships with ourselves, each other and the earth and what he found was that some of the great innovators out there, many of them were looking to nature to heal nature and so there were nature sourced solutions and that's where the word Bioneers came from.

But. Bioneers started as an annual gathering. Um, we started it in 1990 and over the years it has grown and grown and evolved tremendously so that now there is an annual face to face in person conference of about a year. 2500 or 3000 people, but there is also an incredible wealth of media that we put out.

So we produce a radio series that wins awards many years and, um, a great newsletter and a lot of what motivated Bioneers in the first place was the recognition. [00:04:00] That the mainstream media tends to carry the bad news, but not the good news of the world. That's being born. And especially in this time when there's so much destruction and violence and coming apart, we all need to remember to give some of our time and energy to the world.

That's being born because it's incredibly uplifting and inspiring and full of role models. And, and, um, that's what Pioneers is. And, um, what else did you ask me? I think that was the main question. No,

Alyssa Calder Hulme: it, it was. Um, one of the things that you talk about in your book is the difference between a Bioneer and a Pioneer.

And how as in the Bioneer space, you are looking to To create with the world instead of imagining it as a blank space that doesn't have, um, life already living and I don't know, I'm not articulating it very well. Your book says it so much more [00:05:00] beautifully, but, um, co creating in that world with indigenous people with local knowledge with local plants and flora and fauna and all of those things.

You speak maybe a little bit. to that? And, and why is that a revolutionary concept to an American white person?

Nina Simons: Oh, that's a great question. Well, and it's interesting as you frame it, it very much parallels my exploration with leadership because, um, what I've realized as a woman with all the privileges that having white skin gifts me in this country, um, and a fierce determination to become a better uh, anti racist, a better white ally, um, and to learn deeply what it means to do that.

Um, part of what I've learned is that we actually need to invest in our own humility, and I think that's parallel to what you were asking because, um, [00:06:00] you know, Western civilization Tends to have us think of nature as resources and in fact an indigenous worldview thinks of nature as relatives And imagine how differently you would relate knowing that the trees and the Soil and the mycelium and the, you know, all of the elements are your relatives, rather than just resources to be mined or extracted or used.

Um, so it really is about, you know, for me, what I've come to understand from all these years of immersing myself in both the challenges we face and. This amazing fount of solutions has been that, um, that the solutions we need are largely already in form all around us. And that what we need to do is quiet [00:07:00] our egos and our tendency toward hubris to learn from the allies that surround us.

And that actually includes, um, people of different backgrounds. People of different classes and ages and orientations that I think a lot of what we're facing right now is a need to transform our culture by shifting our culture within ourselves first so that we relate to difference as a virtue rather than as an obstacle to be overcome.

Alyssa Calder Hulme: Yeah, I, I love that in your book, you talk about a shift in culture and cultural change from a me to a we, and I, I really, I think that's such a succinct, fantastic way to, to talk about that. Um, and so I want to talk now about. In your book, you talk about leadership and being labeled as a leader and kind of your initial, um, being repulsed by that title and kind of your [00:08:00] transformation through that.

So I would love to, I'd love to dig into that and then how your position and privilege as a leader has allowed you to exercise that humility and grow and learn with other people with maybe less privilege. Um, so, so talk to us a little bit about. Um, that stigma of leadership and, and maybe in conjunction with ambition, because I think it's a very similar stigma when a woman is trying or is in that place.

Nina Simons: I do too. And it's been interesting to think about in relation to your podcast and recognize that, you know, social scientists have long observed that in our culture, when we raise boys, we raise them to crow when they achieve something. Whereas when we raise girls, we tell them not to crow, we tell them to be silent, to hold it to themselves.

And really the models of virtue that [00:09:00] boys and girls are raised with are very, very different. And what I found When I was first called a leader, um, I was about 40 years old and I, I really didn't like it. I knew I was supposed to be flattered, but really I felt like it painted a target on my back. It was not a title I had ever aspired to.

And. I knew from Bioneers that the earth is calling us all to be leaders now. And so I had to figure out how to reconcile those two things. And as I started convening women leaders, they would all come together immediately disavowing that they ever thought of themselves as leaders. So I found that it was a bigger issue than just me.

And I think, you know, it relates to the, what you were just citing of the transition from a me culture to a weak culture, because really, um, I've done two books [00:10:00] now exploring leadership and how we are all co inventing and co creating new models of leadership. And, you know, I did that First, by exploring all of the talks from all of the leaders I most admired at Bioneers, and then deconstructing them to find patterns of how were they similar, and how were they different than my mental model, and, uh, and what I found was that they were all motivated from the heart, not the head.

They were motivated by an internal passion to serve or defend or protect something. And not by a title or a graduate degree, um, they were often people who stepped up to do something when they didn't even know exactly what they could do. And it wasn't until they were in it that it began to reveal. And, And they [00:11:00] were, they were also people who, whose concept of leadership was involved sharing authority and sharing power.

And so, you know, increasingly, I came to appreciate the Gloria Steinem thing of leaders are those who lift each, who lift others up. No, and, and as I explored that, I realized how important it was to both have your own sense of dignity and self love, but to have that balanced with humility so that you can recognize the gifts and talents and those around you and generously support them without feeling Threatened by the zero sum game of patriarchy that if someone else is good at something it means you're not so uh So I mean this latest book is sort of the latest Evolution of my thinking about leadership.

It also talks about a lot of the [00:12:00] data about Women throughout the world and how their leadership is affecting change And, and how much, um, the research is proving that when women lead, everything gets better, you know, and so I think of the old model of leadership as an I model because it was driven by ego and personal achievement, you know, and, and I think of the new model that we're all co creating as a we model.

Yeah,

Alyssa Calder Hulme: I love that. And that, I mean, it blends so well into my research on ambition, um, in terms of, you know, when we're looking at gender roles where men are socialized to be individualistic and to be competitive and to be climbing and, um, are expected to be in those leadership positions, but from that ego place and from that, um, Stamp of approval of a title or, uh, income or [00:13:00] education or whatever it is.

And now women are, are exercising in these places, but we're showing up in new ways and we're showing up with different gifts and with different values and priorities. And then when we're given the title of leader, it doesn't sit right, or it feels wrong. Um, And I, and, or ambition, I ask people to be on the show and they're like, Oh, I'm not ambitious.

I'm like, well, let's talk about it. Cause I think you might be. And I think that maybe what you're scared of is actually some of the values that people have linked with those words that, that don't fit. Um, yeah, I love, I, one of the things I love about your book is that you talk and cite so many different.

Women and groups and, uh, people from all over the world and talk about how their collaborative community based relational practices and different values are really starting to change the world and how the power of the [00:14:00] grassroots movements across the world and how they are. Are changing our society. Um, how as a leader, uh, with a platform, um, I know you've done a lot of work to create leadership spaces, uh, that account for differences in, um, Class and race and lots of different perspectives and places like that.

What was it like to start engaging in some of that work to try and make your spaces more equitable and accessible to people who have been systematically disenfranchised?

Nina Simons: Well, you know, there was a pivotal moment in my learning about that, Alyssa, when I read a book by a woman named Linda Tar Whalen called Women Lead the Way, and what she cites in that book is that until any minority Has reached at least 30 percent in a group, they [00:15:00] don't feel flanked enough to fully show up.

And that was revelatory to me and my co facilitators. And at that moment, we agreed that we would set a minimum of 30 percent women of color in our trainings and that we would have a woman of color on our facilitation team. So that one third of the facilitation team was, was a person of color and everything shifted dramatically as soon as we did that.

Um, You know, I think in a nutshell, it was in some ways scary to me to embark on that steep learning curve, but in other ways I felt really compelled to do it, and in retrospect, I feel really proud of myself that I embraced it so fully, and that in fact, I've reached a point in my life where I have Profound friendships and [00:16:00] relationships with women from all walks of life, and I feel like it's gifted me, you know, one of the things I think, Elisa, about this work is that people often talk about how hard it is, but they don't often talk about how rewarding it is.

And I have found it to be some of the most rewarding work in my life. And it's gifted me some opportunities to experience in an embodied way what Dr. Martin Luther King called Beloved Community. And there's nothing like it, you know. It also helped me to understand Why the patriarchy has been so invested in socializing us to be in competition with each other rather than an alliance with each other.

Because I think one of the most powerful things in the world is women in deep intentional alliance who can grow each other's leadership, [00:17:00] um, faster, better, deeper than anything else I've ever seen. So that's, that's some conditioning to get over. Yeah,

Alyssa Calder Hulme: absolutely. I know so many white feminist women of my generation are trying to, uh, be allies and do anti racism work, and there is so much, so much work left to be done.

And then, you know, at some point, there comes a time when it's time to start actually enacting some of those things we're learning, and I, it's scary to move from a learning place to an action place, and then it's, I mean, Speaking for myself, like it's vulnerable to try and reach out and, and start that inclusive journey because it will most certainly involve some direct correction and education from the people around me.

And, um, [00:18:00] I think what you're saying, it is a very vulnerable thing to, to learn something and then to try and change an organization and to, to make that big shift of who are we inviting and who are we putting in those positions of power and making those shifts. And I see it happening. And, you know, there are all kinds of companies with different quotas and they're trying to get certain rates of leadership in different areas.

Um, it sounds like you did it. Fairly quickly and a steep learning curve, as you say, how did you, uh, so one of the phrases in your book is, uh, discomfort, resilience, learned, like that's part of that humility and letting go, um, allowing to be uncomfortable and to be educated and to continue to grow and listen to other people.

What was that like? And, uh, you talk about. You know, getting feedback about cultural appropriation and, and [00:19:00] those types of things. Can you speak to that process and the humility or learning

Nina Simons: curve? Yeah. I mean, I think, I think one of the things that it requires is really coming face to face with having been raised by a culture that is deeply embedded in white supremacy.

And so, you know, when you face that, when I face that in myself, it causes me to look at the stereotypes I carry, you know, my assumptions that someone may know less than me because they have a different background or a different color of skin. Um, and in fact, The more that the doing has taught me, I mean, I think studying and learning with other white people is really important and really necessary, but also, um, I think it's taught me a kind of [00:20:00] humility to understand that, you know, I'll give you an example.

Um, early in my women's leadership work, I remember saying to a room of mixed women that I was raised in a home where anger was not expressed. And as a result, I didn't really know how to have a healthy relationship to anger and that I suspected that that might be true for many or most women. And I had an African American woman immediately push back and say, Not true in our culture.

You know, I, I was raised to express my anger in a great and healthy and strong and quick way. And I thought, Wow, okay. Well, that's something I have to learn from you, you know, that's great. Um, so I think Let's see I think the other thing about it that I want to say and I I write about this in a longer essay in the book is that it's one thing to [00:21:00] learn about white supremacy and the racist history of our nation from your head.

And it's another thing to feel it in your heart. And some of the hardest anti racism training experiences I've ever had has been witnessing other white people only respond from their heads. And they either get defensive or they have a rationale or, but But the truth is, um, we are living among people who are experiencing painful events due to the racism deeply embedded in our culture every single day, many, many times a day, and sometimes it's it involves fear for the life of their Children, you know, um, and.

And so it requires really extending your empathy to somebody else's experience, and similarly, [00:22:00] as I've learned about Indigenous peoples and the horrors that we have inflicted on them, that this nation has, um, I find myself having tremendous amounts of empathy and compassion, and And then the trick is, how do you turn that into some sort of action?

Because knowing about it, thinking about it, talking about it doesn't mean squat until you do something about it. And that means helping in whatever way you can. But it also means not falling into the trap of becoming a white savior. Instead, coming in a humble way to say, I want to be of service. How can I help?

Tell me how I can help you because only they know what they need really. And, um, and put me to work, you know, I'll wash dishes. I'll take out the trash. Tell me what you need. Um, So, I mean, I guess that's the [00:23:00] best I can do in a generalized form. Yeah.

Alyssa Calder Hulme: So I want to mention today too, we are recording this on Memorial Day in the United States.

The day that we remember people have passed away, our ancestors and our loved ones. And For me, a part of this process has been coming to terms with, with my own family history and the complicity in the settler colonizer state and in the patriarchy and, um, a lot of the contradictions that are there, that it's really tempting to paint a really pretty picture of pioneers or pilgrims, or, you know, the settlers that built this cabin and worked so hard to settle this area.

And it's, It's, it's so many complicated overlapping truths of also, um, genocide and rape and, um. And land theft. And death and destruction. Yeah. Yeah. Land theft and, and continual [00:24:00] occupation. Here I am. Yeah. In Utah. I have no ancestors from Utah. And I'm still here. Yeah. And, um. It's, it's a paradox and it's hard and it's uncomfortable.

Um, and I have children. So part of my work is to teach them about all of that and try and model how to continue to exist and then what to do next. Um, because I think if I'm running away from it in my own family system and my own family culture, like I can't. I'm not going to do anything on a greater scale that's actually helpful, you know.

Nina Simons: Yeah, I sure do. And we're surrounded by so many examples of people who, you know, there's a saying, uh, in the healing communities that hurt people, hurt people. Yes. Right. And, and so what you're facing, Alisa, is very much an opportunity to break the chain and [00:25:00] to, um, to really choose something different for yourself and your kids.

And I applaud you for doing so. It's a big deal.

Alyssa Calder Hulme: Thank you. Yeah, it, it's hard. And it's vulnerable to, to put myself in positions to learn and to be corrected and to be told, um, that I have a limited perspective. But, but like you're saying, there's, it's not just all pain there. Like, there's so much beauty in learning.

Uh, one of my. Favorite examples of this recently is, um, in the resistance to the Dakota access pipeline, uh, the Lakota people established a resistance movement and it was led by the indigenous people of the area. And there were lots of activists and other native people that came to help. And proportionately the, the local native people were a very small fraction at the end.

Um, but everyone continued to function. under the guidance of that leadership and under that sovereignty. And I, it's such a [00:26:00] beautiful story that is just a fraction of what was going on there, but that, that sovereignty and that leadership and that respect that was able to function, I think for almost like 10 months in that space allowed for a much larger work to happen.

And it's a beautiful example of how. Leadership and sovereignty is not, it doesn't have to be this dominating power, but it can be this community agreement to recognize leadership in these beautiful spaces and with indigenous values. And, um, it brings me so much hope. So I can, I can feel what you're saying about the resilience and the hope and the leadership and the learning that comes from engaging with these stories that also hold so much

Nina Simons: pain.

Yeah. Well, and, and frankly, there is a, a fierce commitment to surviving and thriving in many Native communities. And [00:27:00] it's huge. You know, I, I recently heard a friend whose son was at Standing Rock, and she's a Native woman, and she said, I'm so grateful for what my son learned there because he learned that you don't ever put lives at risk without checking first with the life givers and the life bearers.

So you go to the women first for their permission if you're going to consider something dangerous. And he, she said, I'm so grateful he learned that. You know, and it made so much sense to me. I thought, wow, what if before we went to war, you know, we had part of our constitution was a council of elder women.

They would consult before going into war. It would change everything. Revolutionizing. Right?

Alyssa Calder Hulme: Yeah. And in your book, you talk about, uh, the Iroquois Confederacy and the, uh, [00:28:00] The

Nina Simons: Haudenosaunee. Thank

Alyssa Calder Hulme: you. Yes, I read it. It's, it's weird to say it out loud. I'm not used to that. Um, Haudenosaunee and how they have that council of women.

Yeah. And that is, you know, that was the inspiration for a lot of the, um, the feminist movement in the United States.

Nina Simons: And the U. S.

Alyssa Calder Hulme: Constitution. Yes. And I, I have, I have, um, Iroquois ancestry and I'm so proud of that piece and I, it's, it's a very small fraction, but I'm like, ah, I want to connect with that part of, part of my ancestry as well because, oh my goodness, we have so much to learn.

I have so much to learn. Um. Okay, so many things that we could, that we could talk about here. Um,

Nina Simons: You know what? Can I jump in for a sec? Oh, please do. Please do. Okay. I was realizing as I was anticipating being with you today that I was thinking about my own relationship to ambition. Oh, yeah. And, and what I [00:29:00] realized was that I've never had ambition to be rich or a celebrity.

I've never had that kind of ambition. The kind of ambition that I have had has been a promise to myself that before I die, I'm going to live out what my soul brought me here to bring. And that's a form of ambition, I realized, you know, and certainly, you know, I enjoy being well used. I enjoy feeling like I've contributed something that's really Helped move something, um, that I care about and I work with a number of women who are quite ambitious and I love that they're ambitious because, you know, they're, they're sort of natural born competitors and, and.

Why shouldn't we all have that within ourselves? You know, a [00:30:00] desire to excel. So I think, you know, part of what I talk about in the book is this idea that I call full spectrum leadership, and by which I mean, having access to all of our human capacities at any given time. And if the feminine is the receptive and the masculine is the active, why shouldn't we have all of it?

I mean, of course, as whole human beings, that's my aspiration.

Alyssa Calder Hulme: No, I thank you for, for bringing us back to that, uh, cause I, I do want to explore that more. Um, one of the things I'm cautious of is engaging in a binary of, um, and it's ironic because you know, the name of the podcast is. Women of ambition. And so I'm engaging in that in, in a division by calling out experiences of women.

Um, so I am cautious of that, but as you're saying, being holistic [00:31:00] people, exploring all pieces of our identity, making sure that's in balance, you know, it's not just women reclaiming femininity, but it's also men reclaiming that part of their leadership as well. And having that holistic experience. Um, Can you maybe speak a little more specifically about the different ways that, uh, feminine leadership comes across?

I know there are so many examples in your book.

Nina Simons: Sure. You know, there's There's a phrase from the late 60s feminist movement. I don't remember which number it is, but I can hardly keep track. Are we in the fourth

Alyssa Calder Hulme: right now? I think that's

Nina Simons: what we're in right now. But, um, you know, feminist scholars started writing about all our ways of knowing.

And reclaiming all our ways of knowing. And that phrase really [00:32:00] resonates for me. Um, what I've realized as I've explored my own self and cultivating myself to, to full flourishing, which is how I think of it. Um, and I hope I'm continuing to cultivate myself until the day I die, right? So that, that involves taking risks, being vulnerable.

Um, what I find is that I almost have practices to turn down the volume on my mental capacities and turn up the volume of the knowing of my heart, of my emotions, of my body's Knowing and intelligence, and also of my intuitive or spiritual understanding and relationship to the sacred, to my ancestors, to the invisible world, you know, scientists are proving all the time that, uh, the invisible world [00:33:00] actually exists, and that in fact, it may have a far greater influence on events than the part that's visible and palpable to our five senses.

So, so what I've found is that as I'm growing toward my full flourishing, and I should say all this self cultivation has led me to a place, Elisa, where I'm feeling more, um. authentic, more fully integrated, more free and more trusting of all of the parts of myself than I ever have in my life before. And I want that for everyone.

It's just so wonderful to feel. And I, I look back and I think, well, I kind of wish I'd learned it sooner, but I'm not sure I could have, you know, so it, we'll each take whatever time we take. Um, Okay, what did you ask me? Ah, okay. Feminine leadership. So, you [00:34:00] know, what it looks like to me is recognizing that our emotions exist for good reason.

Whether we're in a female body or a male body, emotions are communications from nature about something that we need to pay attention to. And in fact, of course, as we all know, in our culture, Hollywood produces movies that they call chick flicks that are all about relationship and emotion and men don't think those movies are for them.

But I personally believe that if we could institute publicly acceptable, safe venues for expressing both grief and anger, we could Dial down the amount of violence in our culture almost overnight. I think it's just huge. So, you know, one of my favorite examples was a woman [00:35:00] at one of our, uh, trainings who was a labor organizer.

And she described sitting at a table with a room full of men and how she was so passionate about something that she was crying. And she didn't apologize. She was the leader in the room. She didn't apologize. She spoke through her tears. She said, I'm weeping because I care so damn much. And they all really got it.

And I thought, wow, what an incredible role model. Um, you know, and, and part of what, uh, we did on those retreats was to unpack the conventional forms of leadership where leaders, think they know the answer to everything, right? And, and to juxtapose it with new models of leadership where it's safe and okay to say, I don't know, does anyone have a better idea?

Or does anyone have experience with this who can help inform us? I think we're all [00:36:00] moving toward much more shared, egalitarian, team based models of leadership. And that the more comfortable we can get with that within ourselves. So that we can see it as a, as a accomplishment, not as a failure to be sharing power.

Um, the quicker and better we're going to transform our world. Yeah, I,

Alyssa Calder Hulme: I totally agree with you.

Nina Simons: That's beautiful. I mean, there's another thing that I would say too, is that, you know, Part of this all was ignited, uh, when I first saw a film online called The Burning Times, and I began to understand through that film and the research that I did, um, subsequent to that, that all of the systems of our society had transformed during this three to four hundred year period in European history that had correlatives all over the world.

[00:37:00] And that everything associated with the feminine became devalued, and everything associated with the masculine became elevated. And, uh, and so for instance, you know, being embodied is a gift of the feminine. Um, literally we birth literally . Well, that's right. Exactly. Exactly. And how many men do you know who are comfortable in their own bodies?

Yeah. You know? Um, so they can only feel anger. Well, how crazy is that? Yeah, right.

Alyssa Calder Hulme: They're very emotional. But it can only come through in one way. That's not healthy. .

Nina Simons: No, and especially not at a time when there's so much. Lost going on and so much pain and suffering. I mean, honestly, if you're not feeling grief, you're not paying attention.

Um, because there is a lot of that going on and it's painful and real. Um, so, you [00:38:00] know, I think, I think that. Uh, freeing ourselves of the old conditioned mental models and then aspiring toward, you know, how can we embody our whole selves? How can our creative self become part of our leadership? How can our playful self become part of our leadership and how powerful that could be really to say, I don't know, what do you think?

You know?

Alyssa Calder Hulme: Yeah. I, I really appreciate that. Bye. Bye. humor can be one of those really transformational pieces. Um, I'm learning, I'm learning so much right now from, um, queer and trans people in terms of creation and joy and extravagance and flamboyance. Um, and, and same, especially with, uh, black feminist women, um, in their liberation movements and rest and healing and spirituality and wholeness and all [00:39:00] these textures of self that I.

I might not even be aware of or might not even think about bringing forward in those places and, uh, we just, we need each other and, and as we're talking about these emotions and, and lack of touch with ourselves, um, you know, I think about the, the lack of our public ceremonies and, and morning processes and celebrations and these community experiences that we, um, That our people had long ago, or maybe we've lost in our current day.

Um, and you talk a lot about the women that are bringing those kinds of ceremonies back and you talk about personal ceremonies. Um, can you speak maybe a little bit to that and how that. Works to integrate those parts of ourselves or or exercises them maybe I don't know. What do you think?

Nina Simons: Well, you know, I think what you're referring to.

I refer to as [00:40:00] rituals and I Maybe 15 years ago or so. I was gifted to To experience a ceremony by a Peruvian teacher named Oscar Miro Quesada, and at the end of about an eight hour ceremony, he said, if you remember only one thing, remember this, consciousness creates matter, language creates reality.

Ritual creates relationship and even though it was the wee hours of the morning, those words landed in me like, and I have used them to cultivate myself for now a long, long time and found them really helpful. And one of my favorite examples is just a really simple one where I realized one day that when I got out of the shower, I would look in the mirror.

And I'd have all [00:41:00] these voices go off in my head about my hips being too wide, or my belly being too round, or my butt being, you know, all of those things, right? And I realized that each day I was doing violence to myself. And that I had to not only stop it, but replace it. And so I made up a ritual where I found a body oil that I really liked and, um, added essential oils to it until the scent really pleased me as a first thing in the morning kind of a thing.

And so then I, you know, I held myself accountable for every day getting out of the shower and anointing my body with that oil. And while I did it. pouring love into my body and telling it what I was grateful for and what I appreciate about it and thanking it for all [00:42:00] the ways it supported me. And it, you know, it only took, takes two or three minutes a day.

But what I found was that if I invent a ritual to strengthen some part of myself and hold myself really seriously accountable to doing it every day. Somewhere around six or eight weeks, I can feel a change in myself. And, um, so I find that really helpful, you know, and, um, similarly, I realized on our women's retreats that it made me nuts every time I heard somebody refer to a room full of women as guys.

I was like, no, we are not guys. I'm a

Alyssa Calder Hulme: California girl. I am totally, I totally do that too. So I'm trying to change my language. It's hard. It's hard.

Nina Simons: Well, I'll tell you what helps. I love calling them guyas. I would be like, look, we're all Gaias, okay? Let's do [00:43:00] that.

Alyssa Calder Hulme: I like that. Because then you can change it mid word when you realize it's happening.

Nina Simons: Exactly. And how wonderful to be addressed as a planet. Yeah.

Alyssa Calder Hulme: So is, have you, have you moved those rituals and things into? practices with other people. I can see that as being something that's really powerful in friendships or even in like a business setting or a collaboration space. What does that look

Nina Simons: like?

Well, you know, a lot of what I talk about in the book is the power of women's circles. There are a lot of great authors who've written about this. Um, but the truth is you can do it. With one or two or five other women and, um, you know, there's a wonderful ritual that we do, we did in our retreats that we called compost and cauldron.

Yes, I wanted to

Alyssa Calder Hulme: talk about that because I love the idea of compost rather than like throwing something away. So please. [00:44:00] Right.

Nina Simons: Okay. So basically the ritual is this. You observe each day. What do you want to let go of? What have you observed in yourself that you're ready to give back to the earth because it's no longer serving you?

And it could be a self limiting idea. It could be. Uh, a habit that you have, you know, it could be anything, but it's something that you really want to ritually lay down to the earth and know that, like with compost, it becomes food for the earth. It's not waste, it's not trash, it just becomes food. And what you put in the cauldron is what you're cooking on for yourself.

And so, you would go around the circle and each woman would say, I'm composting this. that I saw myself do when I compared myself to the woman who walked in the room. And I thought, Ooh, I have the wrong shoes. I'm not dressed right. I, I, I'm not nearly smart [00:45:00] enough compared to her, all those things. I'm composting that and I'm going to put in the cauldron how good I felt.

When she appreciated my idea, right? I love that, yeah. I know. So, and what happens is that everyone in the circle benefits from it because we, you realize that these things that we have, so many of them are shared and so universal and it takes it out of the me and the individual and puts it more into the circle of we're all healing from this crazy culture that has given us a lot of conditioning.

that doesn't serve our best interests, our best flourishing. And so when we do it together, it becomes more lighthearted. You know, we all can mirror each other. And I think the other thing that I found about working in circles with women is that often others can see us [00:46:00] much more clearly than we can see ourselves.

And so it can be very helpful after you're working with somebody in a circle. That you know, or you know pretty well, and you can say to them, you know, when I do my own self assessment, what I notice is that, uh, A, B, and C are some of my strongest gifts or talents, but I don't know if you see me that way.

How do you see me? What do you think are my strongest gifts or talents? And what do you think are my areas that I could be strengthening or, or, you know, where I should turn to another for help? Um. Because that's cultivation. That's an investment in each other's leadership. And it's so helpful.

Alyssa Calder Hulme: I love that.

It's that vulnerability and practice, that humility that we were talking about.

Nina Simons: Yes,

Alyssa Calder Hulme: exactly. Investing in and lifting each other up. Um, Yeah, I, I think that's just another, [00:47:00] another kind of ambition to, to practice that when it, when it might feel so, um, unnatural initially.

Nina Simons: Well, I think, I think like anything, you know, it's a muscle that when we practice, it becomes stronger.

And I think also just to tie it back to our earlier conversation in relation to racial justice, you know, it's very important that we as white women don't go to women of color and say, teach me, what's it like to be a person of color or what do I need to learn? Because that's a kind of, um, uncompensated emotional labor that white people tend to lay on the backs of people of color.

And so it's really important that we educate ourselves. Both about the history of slavery and colonialism and racism in this country, but also, um, about [00:48:00] our own relationships to our ancestors. So we're not going to them saying, you know, here, fill up my culture cup with your culture. No, we have to have our own.

Alyssa Calder Hulme: So that, that was one of the other things that I was thinking about as you're discussing this, um, because I know a lot of. A lot of white presenting people have been very separated from their indigenous cultures and practices and rituals. And so a lot of us are, are seeking them out and we can, um, we can appropriate from other cultures in ways that we might not, in our ignorance, might not realize are damaging, um, and then, and learn and change, but then also in kind of, Trying to create our own rituals, even if we don't realize we're adopting something from another culture, um, but then we can be educated and learn and grow.

I think that's kind of my fear in that way is that I will in learning something that's helpful to my spirit and to. Um, learning and growing, then learn that I have [00:49:00] adopted that without permission from another culture unknowingly, um, is that just, do I just need to keep being humble and, and learning?

Nina Simons: Well,

Alyssa Calder Hulme: it happens so inadvertently, you know what I mean? And it's genuine. And then the impact is so painful to others. And so I'm just grappling

Nina Simons: with that. You know, one of the things that I've learned from my contact with indigenous peoples is protocols are really important. And what that means is you don't borrow from another culture without citing the source.

And so, if you learn something in a book, cite the author. If you learn something from a teacher, ask their permission before you share it again. Because there is something about honoring others sovereignty that is so central. To the dignity of people trying to heal from all these centuries of oppression.

And it's when we do things [00:50:00] without citing the source, without asking permission, without honoring where it came from, that's when it's really cooptation.

Alyssa Calder Hulme: Yeah. Yeah. I thank you for that. I think part of my, my issue is I don't always realize that something comes from another culture. Yeah. And I guess at that point, all I can do is Ask for forgiveness and learn and adapt in the moment.

Nina Simons: Ask for forgiveness if you hurt somebody. Yeah. I mean, here's the thing. Culture is a nebulous thing. And we learn from and with each other constantly. We are fundamentally social creatures. And, and culture is always evolving. So, you know, there is a way that that line is not nearly as as clearly drawn as some people would imagine.

And so I think you just have to practice witnessing [00:51:00] yourself and being clear about your intentions. And, you know, one of the things I like to remind myself, Alisa, is that doing racial justice work as a white person means having both a thick skin and a thin skin at the same time. Yes, I agree. I love that because I want to open myself to really feel other people's experience and the truth of that and the pain of that.

And at the same time, I want to have a thick enough skin that I recognize that when I make mistakes, it doesn't mean I'm a bad person. It means I have to. Pay attention and learn and apologize if it's appropriate, but it doesn't hurt me to make mistakes, really, you know, and, and so I think it's an art that we practice and get better at being thick skinned and thin skinned at the same time.

Alyssa Calder Hulme: Yeah. And then, and then having you taking the privilege and the [00:52:00] position or whatever we have to actually go and act on that knowledge and, and help people. Cause we can't just learn something and crumple inward and not do anything about it and just feel guilt. Like that is not. That's not the point. And I also don't want to be, yeah.

And I also don't want to be so scared of doing something wrong that I'm not engaging in reaching out and being vulnerable. So, I mean, it's a, it's a tricky balance, I think, but, um, you know, one of the things you talk about is. Engaging in community and in listening to one another and growing together and it's vulnerable, but that's I think that's part of that leaning into that feminine side that has been so undervalued for so long.

Nina Simons: It's true. And I love that you mentioned earlier. That, um, you named rest as part of reclaiming the feminine and, you know, I have a teacher who taught me that spaciousness is where the feminine [00:53:00] flourishes. And I thought, huh, in this culture that is so focused on hyper productivity and, you know, how many of us have to do lists.

that are way too long and don't give ourselves spaciousness, even for 10 minutes in the middle of the day to just chill and go quiet or sit, um, and be, be in spaciousness. I think that that's a vastly underrated, undervalued experience that, um, can help all of us who are ambitious and leaders and caring about flourishing into our best selves.

Um, that's a practice that's worth cultivating and believing in because it also helps. Me to remember to value myself deeply, you know, not in a hallmark way not in a narcissistic way but in a like [00:54:00] I you know, this body is the instrument of my purpose my soul's purpose and Taking good care of it for the long haul is not selfish it's an act of leadership and one that I I hope we all do because we are living through an epidemic of burnout and um, that doesn't help anybody.

It just perpetuates the, the dying system.

Alyssa Calder Hulme: I agree. Um, you know, I have three daughters and I, and you're talking about leadership and self care and you know, every time they walk in on me taking a bath or laying down and reading a book. Or painting or something that feeds my soul. It's like, I'm not doing it for show, but they see me and they will take my lead on those types of things.

And every time, you know, I burn myself out, it goes that way too. So yeah. Um, yeah, I, I'm remembering now the, some of the rituals that I've created for [00:55:00] myself where when I'm menstruating, I. I slow down and I build in time and space to take a special bath with a special candle and, um, you know, Epsom salts or some things.

But, uh, it's, it's been interesting for me to use my own body rhythms to remember that the world is not built for me. Every day is not the same. I'm on a cycle, engaging with the moon, engaging with the stars and being like, yeah, every day is not the same. I'm not a man, I don't have those hormones. And, you know, taking that time to reconnect.

with that feminine side that's cyclical and changing is, is really beautiful.

Nina Simons: It is. And it's a beautiful capacity that women have to connect with earth cycles that way, you know? Yeah. So cool. It was very powerful to me to learn. That in many Native American [00:56:00] cultures, the tradition of banning women from sweat lodges when they are on their moon time did not come about because of any belief that the women were dirty.

Quite to the contrary, it came about because of the belief that women on their moon time have a more direct connection to the sacred. So there you have it. Yeah, I,

Alyssa Calder Hulme: I have, I have indigenous friends that have been, um, leading and teaching me in some really beautiful ways. And they continue to emphasize that to me and talk about how in their society, women don't need the sweat lodge because they have their own ceremony.

It's an excess. It's an extra, but the men. require it because they don't have that in their, in their biology. And, you know, I, it's such an interesting thing to learn about and I'm still just scratching the surface on that, but that's been part of my, my [00:57:00] coming back to self ritual, because then it does allow me to do all the many other.

Outward things that I want to do, but yeah, you know, we have to have balance across all parts of ourself. Yep

Nina Simons: Yes, we do

Alyssa Calder Hulme: Okay, well we are gonna wrap up here, but thank you so much for for coming on and sharing these things just a Beautiful, gorgeous book. I can't wait for other people to read it and to share it even more.

Um, is there anything in closing that you want to share with listeners, with ambitious women?

Nina Simons: Well, I would say, um, That it's worth checking out Bioneers because the role models there are amazing and the conversations are amazing. Um, the URL that's kind of great is bioneers. org slash NCS book because then you can download a free copy of [00:58:00] the introduction to the book.

And. Um, if anyone does do that and does read the book, I would ask humbly that you put a review on Amazon because they count and they're hard to get. And I'm very honored to be offering this book to the world and to your listeners, Elisa, and, and thank you so much. What a treat to be with you.

Alyssa Calder Hulme: Yeah, you're very welcome.

Um, is Bioneers still, do you still do in person conferences?

Nina Simons: We do once a year, um, in the Bay Area in Berkeley, uh, in late, uh, March of next year. And we also have a great newsletter and radio series. And that's free to any station and, um, just a lot of great resources online. So it's very much worth, and I'll be teaching actually an online course in August on sacred activism.

So if [00:59:00] that's of interest, then sign up for the Bioneers newsletter and you'll hear all about it.

Alyssa Calder Hulme: Okay, good. Yeah. I, I really want to go to the March conference. Um, I'm going to be in grad school next year, so I'm not sure how busy I'm going to be, but. How great. Yeah. Well, and I, I'm trying to, I would love to, I'm in sociology and I'd really love to work with nonprofits and grassroots efforts and especially women, um, and gender equity and things like that.

So it's all very, very close to home for me. It's very exciting.

Nina Simons: That's so

Alyssa Calder Hulme: great. Well, I love hearing about these resources. So thank you so much. Um, and yeah, we'll point people to your book and to your website and they'll get to check you out there. Thank you so much for being on the show, Nina.

Nina Simons: Thank you, Elisa.