Behind The Mask: The Rise Of Leslie Vernon 2 Guys And A Chainsaw

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Behind The Mask: The Rise of Leslie Vernon

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This week, we fielded a longstanding request from several of you, and brought on board one of those lucky listeners, Neal, to discuss in-depth a clever meta-horror pseudo-documentary that neither Craig nor Todd had seen before. But oh boy, did we enjoy this one! Full of fun cameos and clever takes on the slasher genre conventions, it twisted and turned in places we both expected and didn’t expect at all – with a killer ending to boot! Enjoy, folks!

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Behind the Mask: The Rise of Leslie Vernon (2006)

Episode 414, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw Horror Movie Review Podcast

Todd: Hello, and welcome to another episode of Two Guys and a Chainsaw. I’m Todd.

Craig: And I’m Craig.

Todd: And today we are joined by a very special guest, one of our long time listeners and patrons, Neil. Neil, say hi to the people. Hey, how you doing? You’ve done a podcast, and do you have one going now, or…?

Neal: I don’t currently have one, so a number of years ago, I started a podcast with some of my best friends called “My Favorite F Words: Football, Fights, and Films”.

So we would talk about college football and the NFL, we’d talk about the UFC and boxing, and then we’d talk about the latest movies that were out. And, uh, this kind of brings me back to the movie part of that podcast. And, uh, we did it for a long time, but COVID kind of took us out of that game. And, actually, the friend who turned me on to this podcast, uh, he might recognize his name. Gilly, he’s one of your early patrons.

Clip: Mm hmm. Yeah.

Neal: He’s the one that told me about your podcast, uh, at work. And I’ve been listening to you guys for a long, long time because of that. I don’t know, I’m rambling now, but it’s been a great experience and I got a little bit of experience talking on the podcast, so.

Craig: I feel like we were at a little bit of an advantage during COVID because we had already been doing it this way.

Todd: Yeah.

Craig: And it’s been doing it remotely for so long that it really, it was no different for us.

Todd: We just had a little more time.

Craig: We had a lot of time on our hands. So

Todd: we’ve got a few episodes ahead that year.

I remember.

Craig: But cool. No, we’re really glad to have you. You’ve, uh, like, like Todd said, you’ve been around messaging us for a while. When we started taking voice messages, you were one of the first one who jumped in and we really appreciate it. We always appreciate the support. So we’re glad to have you from the first time you called in.

I said, this guy’s got a voice for the radio. This guy, this guy should, should do a podcast. So we’re really glad to have you.

Todd: And I

Craig: appreciate that.

Todd: And so he has, do you also, do you also have a radio background? I’m curious now.

Neal: I did some student media work when I was at Virginia tech in the mid 2000s. I started a student media organization because there wasn’t enough room to work for the student paper and ended up.

doing some video work, mostly video work. So I got credential to work in the sports department, got down on the field to shoot football games and interview coaches and players and stuff, got to go to a couple of bowl games, went to the NCAA tournament, interviewed some of the Yankees when they came down to play an exhibition game against our baseball team.

So I had a little bit of experience in front of and behind the camera.

Todd: That’s fantastic. Fellow journalist, huh? Just like me. There you go. I started, I did journalism in school as well. Yeah. Wow.

Neal: But all good. All good. We can stay on task.

Todd: Well, the task today I’m really enjoying because you recommended when you called us on Speakpipe, This movie that I believe you had requested before and we’ve gotten this request from a couple other listeners as well Their names are not in front of me behind the mask the rise of leslie vernon You know when you guys first brought it up I had not heard of this at all and then I kind of looked into it But I didn’t really look into it Like I didn’t go to the imdb and really research it.

I just kind of googled it and it came up And this was years ago. I thought okay. This is some quirky little Odd independent feature that probably, you know, was shot on video and released a video and, and whatever. And so, you know, maybe we’ll come around to it. Maybe we’ll check it out. You know, it sounds like a mockumentary kind of thing.

It could be fun. And then, uh, your recent message. Made us, uh, take another look at it and, uh, then I look, I was like, Oh my God, this movie has a bit of a better pedigree than I originally gave it credit for, which I found unusual because I hadn’t heard of it before. So I’d never seen this before. Like I said, I, it just completely was off my radar, this 2006 movie.

And, uh, here we are talking about this movie almost 20 years later, that feels like it could have been shot, I think, like yesterday. And it has some stars in it. Some people we know. So wow. What a treat this was just to watch it. Thank you. Thank you for recommending it. I’m just going to throw that out there.

I’m so glad

Neal: you enjoyed it. Craig, what did you think about

Craig: it? Well, it’s, this is weird. I hadn’t seen it, but the reason that I hadn’t seen it was because. I was mistaking it for something else. For some reason, I was thinking of Henry Portrait of a Serial Killer. I don’t know why that’s, yeah, that’s, I was thinking that’s what this was.

And at some point I had started watching that movie and I didn’t really get into it. And so every time I would hear of Behind the Mask, I’d be like, and I’m not really interested. So when I put it on, I was like, am I wa, this doesn’t seem familiar. Am I watching the right movie? I, I had totally mistaken it for something else.

Gosh, I don’t know. I didn’t love it, but I totally get why people like it and there are so many. Actually, maybe one of the issues that I kind of have with it, it’s a tip of the hat to Super Horror fans, but I wonder like if you’re not a super hardcore fan like us. If you would get it at all, like I thought it was really clever and funny and I loved all the little you know callbacks to different movies and stuff, but I thought if I didn’t get that like if I didn’t If I wasn’t in on that joke, I might just think it was kind of stupid

Really? I could,

Todd: well, I think I’ve talked about that. When we did Cabin in the Woods where I showed it to my dad and he hated it. He was like, I think this movie’s dumb and it’s really stupid and it’s just mean spirited and stuff. And then I realized, yeah, he doesn’t get it. He doesn’t get any of this stuff.

’cause he doesn’t know the language, you know, he doesn’t know all these conventions. And this whole movie is nothing but poking fun at conventions. So I could see, yeah, I could totally see why this, why, why this probably would go over the heads of people who had not, were not familiar with all those. What about you, Neil?

How did you first come across this one?

Neal: So I came across it probably a year or two after it came out. So it was still somewhat fresh and semi new. The whole meta horror thing had not been as pervasive in the space as it is now. So I thought it was really interesting. At the time, I was in a relationship with someone who was a theater major and was very into movies like Waiting for Guffman, Best in Show, all the Christopher Guest movies, the mockumentary style movies like that.

Love them. And, and it felt very much like a horror version of Waiting for Guffman.

Clip: Yeah.

Neal: And so I was very interested in, in the setup of it, and again, I am a Horror fan, you know, so seeing, you know, they started off and they’re talking about a world where Jason Voorhees is real. Freddy Krueger is real. You see Kane Hodder walking into Nancy’s house on elm street at the very beginning of the movie and you’re like, wait a second.

Like so for me, this is like the first experience that i’m sure people now get watching marvel movies where they’re like, oh, I recognize that. Oh, yeah, you know, so that was my experience with it at first and you’re right It didn’t get I think it came out the same weekend as Dead Silence, the ventriloquist movie,

Todd: uh,

Neal: horror movie.

Todd: James Wan, right.

Neal: Back in 2007. And so, I don’t think that there was anything really competing with it. But, you know, it didn’t make any money, it didn’t, it was a first go out for the director and most of the people in the cast. So I can see why it didn’t make a splash, but I was really disappointed that it didn’t get picked up somewhere else when streaming came out and got another run at it.

Clip: Yeah.

Neal: Yeah. Well, and I don’t

Craig: want you or the listener to get me wrong. I really liked it. I thought it was really clever. I loved the structure of it and, and thought that it was something that I don’t recall ever having seen something like this before, where they’re just taking this ridiculous idea of filming a documentary about a wannabe serial killer and like following him through that process.

I don’t recall ever seeing anything like that, but that was really clever. And then I thought that it was really clever when it switched. In the last, I don’t know, third or so to basically a more traditional Slasher. I just, I think that, gosh, I don’t know, just like a casual horror fan, just, I feel like they might not be in on the joke.

I very much was in on the joke, and I thought it was hilarious.

Clip: Um, but

Craig: I could see how somebody coming at it, not from that perspective. Background might see Leslie Vernon in his killer costume with that mask, which I love, and I hope that we’ll talk about at length. But there are certain images that I think are meant to be funny.

I just don’t know if a more general audience would be in on the joke, but I myself really enjoyed it, thought it was hilarious, really clever, really well written and obviously made by. people who know horror and who are fans of horror. There’s a lot of fan service and I’m here for it. Absolutely.

Todd: I totally agree.

You know, it’s interesting because I felt like I thought the movie took a turn, and we’ll talk about that in a second, but I was really surprised. It started out, and I was like, oh, this is cute. Oh, this is clever. This is interesting, but I’m wondering how far can they possibly take this? Because, you know, the conceit is that there is a, and this, I don’t know if I’m, if I should be confused by this, or if I’m thinking too hard about it, but, you know, this is a world where Jason and Freddie, We’re real life events, and so these people at, you know, these things actually happen, they actually exist, and they just talk about them casually.

And they make it almost sound like all this happened in a, down the street from each other. And this woman, Taylor, who’s, again, this is totally documentary style. Who’s on the camera talking about this says and now we get to Leslie Vernon a 24 years ago a boy who was murdered by being thrown over a waterfall And so then when we see Leslie Vernon on camera I’m like is this a supernaturally resurrected Leslie Vernon and we’re just going with that or is that a mythology that was constructed that Now, you know, is his cover for doing all these murders in this way?

Like, how did you guys take it?

Neal: I was, it was weird to me because when she starts off talking about how these murders took place and were real and so on and so forth, and then she’s going to interview this guy who claims to be the, the person who was thrown off the cliff, you know, as a boy. I had the same, a similar, You know, what is this?

Is this supernatural, or is he truly coming back? And if he is a wannabe serial killer, what is she doing interviewing him instead of calling the cops? But then, I thought I told you my background is in student media, and It’s you see in the super it says university news so You know college students aren’t very bright anyway when they’re just trying to get started You know, so I could see myself being a very very amateur journalist doing a lot of the same things that she was doing Including the really wooden stand up.

Clip: He knows this he says because he himself is the heir apparent to that throne of terror so long held by the likes of Voorhees, Myers, and Kruger. This man’s name is Leslie Vernon. Alright, we

got it. Good job, Taylor. Did that sound forced? I, I, too much like Diane Sawyer, uh, I’m trying to find my own voice. No, it’s

Neal: tight. And that really kind of set me in for the movie. It’s like, okay, it’s not going to be like this. It’s going to be more of a real thing. But with Leslie himself, I really like that actor.

I don’t know. He set me at ease right at the beginning. So I kind of didn’t question it a lot and just wanted to go with it.

Todd: Nathan Basile. Basil? I don’t know how you pronounce it.

Craig: Yeah, he had done some TV. This was his first film, I think. And I really liked him too, but going back to, you know, what is the backstory, you know, is it supernatural?

Is he back from the dead? Well, no. What it comes This is why I think the movie is so smart. What it comes down to is, no, it’s none of those things. Because that’s not really his backstory. It’s just a backstory that he adopted.

Todd: He’s cop. Okay. And,

Craig: you know, he says this. I don’t know exactly what he says. He says lots of kind of philosophical things about the nature of these killers or whatever, but the backstory doesn’t really matter.

You just have to have it. And it doesn’t matter if it’s true or not, as you know, as long as people hear it. And so then that makes me think, okay, well, we’re living in a world where the people just talk casually about Freddie and Jason and Chucky and all of these other killers in this world. and maybe the movie is positive, I don’t know.

All of these guys might not be who we thought they were.

Neal: You know what I’m saying? Exactly, I had heard some folks on other media around this movie talking about how hearing that Chucky was real kind of threw them off and I was thinking, well if you really pay attention to this movie, a lot of it is the work arounds to make it seem supernatural when it’s not.

You know the, the, The cardio line is one of my favorites in the movie.

Clip: You have no idea how much cardio I have to do. It’s ridiculous. Why so much? Well, you ought to be able to run like a freaking gazelle without getting winded. Plus, there’s that whole thing of Making it look like you’re walking. And everybody else is running their asses off.

Oh, right. And I gotta stay with them.

Craig: Yeah, that was

Clip: that was hilarious.

Craig: I mean, it’s such a great conceit, you know, this documentary thing of the buildup, like obviously in these horror movies, these things just happen. You, you expect them, you basically know what’s going to happen. This movie comments on the formulaic nature of it and how they’re all basically the same.

And it does it in a really funny and. Intelligent way. Gosh, but just walking you through step. You don’t think about Jason planning for days ahead. For this event. Yeah. You know, it’s meant to appear spontaneous and the suggestion that it’s not, I just think is really clever.

Todd: Yeah. Yeah.

Neal: Like what? What’s Jason doing on Saturday the 14th?

Todd: right? , right? Or Thursday, the twelfth’s. Thursday the 12th. Yeah. So

Craig: that’s a big day for him.

Todd: Wednesday the 11th. Yeah. He’s gotta set everything up and he’s gotta set it up to these like conventions that. All the people like him know, like all the serial killers know, this is what you have to do. In a way, it’s, it’s almost pretty modern, it’s like a YouTube tutorial, you know, you have these guys who think they know everything who get on YouTube and say, Alright guys, you want to like invest in the stock market, this is, I’m going to walk you step by step through how you do it.

Or, you want to do X or you want to do Y, like, this is the way, this is the way it’s done. done, you know, it’s, it’s sort of like they have this community that has just also agreed that this is the most efficient and effective way to do it. You know, you got to have the backstory. You got to plant that backstory in their head somewhere at some point, whether you fake a newspaper article like he does and lays it casually on top of some books at the library.

So she’s sure to discover it, you know, and, and then of course, you know, you need to have that. They don’t call it the final girl. What do they say? They say the Survivor girl? Survivor

Neal: girl.

Todd: Survivor girl. And I

Neal: thought that was a clever way to do it because in this world, if it’s real, they’re not talking about final girls in the context of the last one left in a movie.

Clip: Yeah. They’re

Neal: thinking of it as the person who makes it out alive from these real life events.

Craig: That is clever. I didn’t Think about that.

Todd: So we got to have the survivor girl. And then, you know, eventually this, this journalist goes and they visit one of his friends and they’re all talking about it. Like, you know, they’re chatting about sports or, you know, whatever.

Oh, you, you were sure to do that, right? Oh yeah. I remember back in 72 and like this happened with that guy and yada, yada, yada. It’s so funny and it just builds and builds. And in that way, The movie never got boring for me, because I didn’t feel like this conceit was getting played out, you know? I felt like it was just getting a new layer added, a new layer added, a new layer added.

And to go back to what you were saying earlier, Neil, starting to say, about the journalist being kind of naive. At one point, you know, you realize this girl’s in over her head, and I could see it coming, you know? I thought, okay, wait a minute. This movie is either going to go one of two ways, right? It’s going to keep the joke going and it’s just going to be a funny movie.

Or it’s going to start to get deadly serious. And what does that do? How does that going to change the tone? And how do you accommodate for these people going along with him on this killing spree? And that’s the direction they go. And they go at it full force to the point where there’s a scene in there where It almost seems like the girl real either realizes for the first time or at least as she’s been putting it to the back of her mind, but she’s forced to confront for the first time the idea that they’re going to accompany him as he executes this plan that he’s been talking about for the last 30 minutes, and he’s been walking them through.

And now she’s got this moral dilemma. And then I was thinking, Okay, this movies really get interesting now. And for me, a little uncomfortable. Well,

Neal: Yeah, yeah, yeah, there’s that moment where the crew meets, I guess I’m trying to jump it around, they meet Doc Holleran.

Todd: Oh, Doc Holleran, yeah.

Neal: Yeah, played by Robert Englund from Nightmare uh, Freddy Krueger.

What?

Todd: That was crazy. Ha ha

Neal: ha ha ha. And after they meet him, Leslie corners him outside, or meets him outside, and was like, Hey, I told I told you, don’t go talk to my survivor girl. And he gets real sinister at that point, you know, like he He kind of flips the switch for just a minute And violent not just sinister very violent.

Yeah, like very menacing And they’re like, oh this guy is actually serious He’s not just some wacko that you know Just follows serial killers and wants to be like them like this guy is actually dangerous And I think that the movie needed that to hammer home the point like this is this is going to take a turn at some Point and we really need to not get too attached to the fun side of leslie vernon You

Craig: Yeah, but I think for me that is the most compelling part of this movie is that I liked him

Clip: Yeah

Craig: Guys, spoiler alert.

He kind of dies at the end. Maybe question mark. We can talk about it later But in that moment like in his death scene, I was sad Yeah, I didn’t like I was like, oh I mean, he’s basically a nice guy.

Todd: Well, that’s kind of the brilliance of this. And I, I went back and I read, I don’t know if you guys found this interview that, uh, Nathan Basil.

Did the guy who played him back in 2013 what he mentions here He said that he had a totally different take on the character than any of the other actors who came out there He said that the way that it was written on page and the way everybody had read it This guy was just like a big mean evil guy who every now and then said some funny things and he said that you know He came in really pretty strong with the director and was like look no, man I want to take it this way and he had this affable Take on it that we see in the movie.

And I think that is kind of the key to what makes this movie work. I think. Because you, you immediately, you’re almost on his side, and you, you take him more seriously because of it, because he has an actual ethos, kind of behind what he’s doing, that disturbingly is totally not unlike the ethos of serial killers, terrorists, you know, people who are, you know.

actually out in the world doing things. He specifically calls out, like, the Unabomber.

Craig: Sure, sure, but, eh, crazy people like that, but also just anybody with ambition who doesn’t care who they leave in their wake. Right. You know what I’m saying? Like, that could be anybody. That could be business people, politicians, you know, people who are ravaging others.

It’s true. For their own personal gain. Ambition. I don’t know, maybe that, maybe that’s too, yeah.

Todd: Well, no, I mean, I agree with you. That’s, that’s part of it. But like, I think the other part of it that I thought was so compelling was that this guy really feels like he’s like, he’s like doing God’s work,

Clip: right?

Every culture, every civilization from the dawn of man has had its monsters. For good to be pitied against evil, you have to have evil. Don’t you?

Neal: And then later in the very last interactions between Leslie and the crew, before things kind of take their, their final turn,

Clip: I made a choice. I made a choice to provide a counterbalance to all those things that we hold good and pure.

You chose journalism. Okay.

Todd: That was hilarious. I laughed so hard at that line. I literally laughed out loud. And I don’t laugh out loud at much, but I laughed out loud at that line so hard.

Neal: It was delivered so earnestly too. I looked at his background. He’s from, he trained at Juilliard.

Clip: Yeah.

Neal: So he brought a lot of really unique aspects to this character and the portrayal.

Right? It doesn’t It tracks completely that he would do a completely different take on the presentation for this character, including the character of Leslie, the slasher, the monster, um, barefoot was his idea was Nathan basil’s idea. They never had a barefoot slasher killer before, and they thought that it would make him seem even more kind of otherworldly or feral.

Um, Yeah, feral, that’s a great word. Yeah. If, if he was thrown over a cliff as a boy, the whole aesthetic of the Leslie Vernon slasher Kind of brings that up. He’s wearing overalls, the mask. We can talk about the mask. It’s very childlike on the director’s commentary. I think that they call that version the boy he’s Leslie when he’s regular Nathan out there talking with Taylor and stuff, but when he goes into his killer mode, they call that the boy.

Todd: Yeah. And it’s kind of, it’s, it’s, it’s a little bit reminiscent of Jason when, when at the end of the first Friday, the 13th, when he comes out of the, you know, he’s kind of got that extended forehead and. He’s a little deformed. You know what I’m talking about? That was, that was something I thought of when I saw that, that mask.

Craig: Yeah, I don’t know, like, it just felt very kind of amorphous, like, almost like it was made out of, like, Play Doh or something. Yeah. What, I don’t know, I don’t, you probably know. Kind of Uncanny Valley. Yeah, a little bit of a porcelain Elvador Dali melting clocks kind of look to it.

Neal: But because it was great.

Oh, I’m sorry.

Craig: I just, yeah, I was just going to say, I thought that the look was great and I totally 100 percent agree with you that that is an excellent show of talent in that when he is in the mask, he’s different. And not even just in the mask. There’s a moment later where, you know, somebody takes his mask off while he’s still in killer mode, but very different, but at the same time, I totally bought it.

Like I, I believe this guy is a character. I believed him when he was talking to the crew outside and was like, look, you guys. Can go or you can stay, but I’ve got to do my thing. And this is going to end up one way or another for me, either way. And he communicated with them on that level, but then when they made the decision to stay, okay, well now I’m Leslie Vernon, the killer.

So sorry. Gosh, I don’t want to get too deep into it, but like the duality of his character. I totally bought. And I thought he did a great job portraying it.

Todd: I also don’t want to get too deep, but in a way, I felt like I could relate to it a little bit. Not that I want to go out and kill anybody, but like, all of us who are horror fans at some stage of our lives or another are questioning, Why are we into this stuff?

There’s almost sort of a duality. I feel like there’s this odd duality to my personality that I can’t quite reconcile. Like, people who meet me, people who know me, have known me for years or whatever, like, obviously they know I’m into horror, but, and, but it just, it seems very incongruous to them that this guy who, you know, wouldn’t hurt a fly is really into this dark stuff, dark music, all that kind of stuff.

And I don’t show it on my face, you know, I don’t go out wearing the t shirts, you know, and we’ve talked about it on the podcast too. What is horror? Why do we like horror? Why? Do perfectly normal and sane people enjoy watching this terrible stuff. And then we also have a lot of movies that, that mind that, right?

Like funny games and that are constantly challenging us. Like, why do you watch this stuff and considered entertainment? And in a way, I feel like in this movie, Leslie Vernon is sort of the embodiment of that, except he’s the extreme. He’s not into horror. He’s into killing people. Otherwise he thinks this is just, this is my job.

You know, this is life, this is, uh, required to restore the balance, and, and I take it very seriously, and also, you know, ha ha ha, we can joke, and I, we can be laughable, and I, and, and you like me as well. It’s very uncomfortable, in a way.

Neal: Mm hmm, totally. Totally.

Todd: You know, that’s really what the movie is up to that point, is just this continuous gag of him walking them through his preparation.

As though we were watching, you know, following Jason. And Jason was just like, okay, well, here’s where I halfway break the board so that when she runs up the stairs, she’s going to fall into this one. That’s going to slow her down. And, you know, this is what I do here. And this is how I make them discover my backstory that is.

Lots of fun.

Craig: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he it’s gosh, I mean, he is, we know from the beginning that he is the killer, but he’s also kind of at the same time, the Randy from screen, like he’s the one who’s walking you through step by step the things that we already know, you know, like any one of us. Could have walked you through the steps.

I mean, there were things that I had never thought of before. Like, I don’t know. I guess the final girl grabbing a big, long, hard weapon. Okay, sure. All right, fine. Yeah. And then I don’t even. I wrote it down, but I’m not going to scan through my notes to find it like the opposite of phallic, like, like vaginal.

Yeah, there you go. Like you have to have that imagery to like the, the final girl has to go through that. You know, like she has to be reborn as this new strong person. Okay. Like I don’t know that I’ve ever thought about it that closely, but the way that he lays out the formula is accurate. And I thought it was great, but what I was really kind of more interested in, in that part, aside from the fact that he was very charismatic and I was a big fan of his was the documentary side of it, which you guys have kind of hinted at a little bit, but I’m really interested to hear specifically you guys perspective because this Taylor girl.

It’s her. She’s the one in front of the camera. And then she’s got like three guys behind her and you barely see them at all until the last third, when they get in front of the camera, but she’s played by Angela Goethals. Did you guys recognize her from anything? Home Alone, perhaps? Ha ha ha

Neal: ha ha! Yeah, that was, that was great.

She has an interesting look, and I was like, I’ve seen this girl somewhere before, and it wasn’t until I knew immediately who it

Todd: was. This looks like an older, not even an older version of her. Like, just somebody, like, blew her face up and made her, like, into a

Craig: twenty something. In, in, in my house, like, Alan and, uh, My sister and I too, because my sister and I grew up watching it.

We will say to each other at least a couple of times a year. You know what the French say? Les incompetants.

So that was a little distracting. However, I loved the concept of them filming this documentary, but Todd, I feel like you and I briefly talked about it when we talked about creep 400 episodes ago,

Todd: um, literally

Craig: how like, okay. So, so you get into this and you’re a journalist and by nature of being a journalist, you are meant to be an observer.

You are not meant to be. An active participant, right? I’m a little confused because she knew this guy wanted to be like the next Jason or Freddy or whatever. So she knew his ultimate objective was to kill people. At what point was she no longer going to participate in that? Because it seemed like it caught her by surprise

Todd: near the end.

I don’t know, how do you interpret that? I think I said it earlier, the way I interpreted it was, it was probably always an uncomfortable question that she was constantly pushing to the back of her, of her head, and not really willing to face until that moment came, just because, you know, she’s a little naive.

But I don’t know, Neil?

Neal: Yeah, I thought she was going at it from the perspective of, he’s obviously not somebody that came back from the dead. He’s interested in these real life killers and stuff, and he claims to be the next in line for their legacy. But, he can’t be serious if he’s calling me to showcase this stuff, so let’s see what he, what he says.

Insight he can provide on this and maybe We’re doing some good in that we can learn some things that almost like profiling I guess, you know Here’s a look inside the mind of a person who would want to do these kind of things and if we can bring that to Light maybe we can help save some lives or something.

That’s that’s the best I can square it in my head But at the same time time, like I said, she’s A college journalist with her college journalist buddies, and I’ve done some really dumb Look on location shoots and yeah trying to trying to do more than I’ve got any business and experience trying to do So, yeah, that’s the best I can square it.

Todd: you’re thinking she didn’t ultimately think he was going to actually start to go through with it.

Neal: Yeah, I thought she was waiting for the twist too. Like, okay, he’s telling me all of this stuff, but he can’t possibly be serious.

Craig: He seems like a really nice guy. Right.

Neal: Yeah, he’s disarming in that way. And she just gets Sucked into his all his field.

Clip: Yeah,

Craig: I can’t imagine

Neal: they like him too.

Craig: Yeah, I can imagine getting sucked in Ultimately, it’s not really just her like she has a three man crew. So Yes, he’s a strong guy, but she’s not by herself. So there’s not that physical threat and he just so is so Endearing and I thought that that also extended When he basically took her home to meet his parents.

They’re not his parents. They’re just You This older couple that he knows, but it’s like his mentor. Yeah. Yeah. Is that Eugene? Is that what his name

Neal: is

Craig: supposed to be? And, okay guys, I’m sure you read this. It’s no surprise to you. If this is true that he was supposed to be Billy from Black Christmas, I’m not sure why they didn’t call that out.

They called everything out.

Neal: Yeah, they wrote it as that. And then they thought that that would probably be a bridge, a bridge too far, so they didn’t. They, they allude to it, but they don’t confirm it. It’s, it’s just funny to me that that’s a bridge too far, like.

Clip: Right?

Neal: Okay. I don’t know, maybe there’s, maybe there was some intellectual property that they could Yeah, that could, yeah.

I don’t know. Sure, sure. Maybe, yeah. I thought that Scott Wilson character, Eugene, really. Helped add another layer and grounds the movie and makes it feel like yeah, this actually could it helps flesh out the universe

Clip: Yeah, oh gosh,

Neal: it lends credence to These things happening. Yeah, they talk about Freddy.

They talk about Jason, but here’s a guy who also Participated in that world of, of killing, made it out, and he is living a life afterwards. And his wife, Jamie,

Todd: apparently

Neal: was his survivor girl. Okay, I wasn’t sure. Oh

Craig: really? I didn’t catch that. I thought that was alluded to, like I thought that at some point some, they had some kind of quip about chasing, like, well you finally caught me, or something like that.

Neal: Yeah, Taylor asks, how do you survive an encounter with you guys? And he says, you know, You, you pick a spot as far away as you can and you run towards it and you don’t stop running until you see daylight. And Jamie kind of. Elbows him in the ribs and it’s like, I was pretty fast, wasn’t I? And, and he was like, yeah, and you caught me or some, or one of them says, yeah, you caught me.

So it kind of implies that she was, uh,

Todd: being chased by him at some point. I love that. Over my head completely.

Craig: I, I, I kinda caught it. I thought that that’s what it must be because she, she doesn’t seem a lot younger than him, but she seems a little bit and she’s very beautiful. Gosh. Yes. Yeah. She’s she’s gorgeous.

But before that, before he says something about picking a spot and running, they’re both giving advice and her advice is don’t hang out with virgins.

I thought that was so funny. And like, if, if you’re hanging out with the Virgin, get some. Somebody in her pants or get out of there.

Neal: That’s just good life advice.

Craig: Oh my gosh. And there were tons. Uh, seriously, if, if, if you are a fan of horror at all, really, you really should watch this movie because it’s a really, really clever horror comedy.

And I’m not trying to wrap up cause there’s still a million things. I want to talk about the first one that comes to mind. I’m sorry, Neil. This is me rambling again. It’s been the only thing that’s been on my mind since we started talking. And I insist that I get it out that Zelda Rubinstein is in this movie.

So great.

Todd: Her last movie before she died. What a

Craig: treasure.

Neal: She’s great. Like, she instantly, she nails her part. Her job is to communicate the lore, to help bring the survivor girl into the world that Leslie is trying to create. And she does it beautifully. It’s the first time we see Leslie in the mask.

Holloran appears and has any kind of meaningful interaction. It’s just that there’s so much that happens within that scene. It’s great.

Craig: And it’s set up so well, like we know how it’s going to be set up because Leslie explains it to us, like, I’m going to plant this and then she’s going to find it. And then she’s going to talk to the librarian and the librarian is going to tell her the story, but then she’s going to say, Oh, don’t worry.

It’s just a story. And, and then that’s exactly what happens. with Zelda Rubenstein. Gosh, like I, I remember hearing when she passed away, but it’s been a long time ago. It was probably before we started the podcast. Otherwise we definitely would have done a tribute. Uh, I just, she is so funny to me. And of course I love her in the poltergeist movies.

She was in like, 16 candles to, I think, oh, Teen Witch. Don’t want to forget Teen Witch. Teen Witch. But also here, like, she’s just being Zelda Rubenstein. Like, she’s being Tangina from Poltergeist. And that was a huge highlight for me. She gives you everything you

Neal: want from an appearance from her.

Craig: Yeah.

Exactly. Exactly. Except, I feel like I blinked and I missed when he killed her. Did he cut her

Neal: throat? So, the cut, the editing is weird there. It, it almost feels like maybe she might have fainted. I don’t know. Yeah, I wasn’t sure. Because there was no consequence after that. Like, if you think, if they killed the librarian, there’d be, like, that’s where Taylor and her crew would be like, Oh wait, this is real.

Craig: And Kelly seems fine after it, like it’s,

Neal: she gets over it really quick. The whole universe didn’t seem to mourn the loss of Zelda very

Clip: much.

Neal: And I think her name in the movie was Miss Collinwood, which is the castle from Dark Shadows. Like, I’m telling you, like, real deep horror trivia. They, the writers of this inserted stuff all over the place that were not I

Craig: caught only a few of them.

I caught when there were some girls in, like, baptismal gowns doing jump rope in the

Neal: back. I’m glad you saw that in the background

Craig: of the, uh, college

Neal: scene.

Todd: Right at the beginning.

Craig: I noticed that. I mean, the ones in the very beginning are, you know, Like, they call them out. Like, they specifically show you the house on Elm Street.

They specifically show you Haddonfield. They specif It’s not like it’s clever, but there are things There are other ones that I read about that I definitely didn’t see. Like, I guess in Eugene’s house on a table, there’s a lament configuration from Hellraiser. Certainly did not see that.

Neal: Yep, it looks like a tissue box sitting on the, uh, table.

Craig: Were

Neal: there,

Craig: were there

Neal: others

Craig: that, cause I love that

Neal: stuff. Yeah the turtles are named Zoe and Chance. Sorry, Zoe and Church, which are the pets from Pet Sematary 1 and 2. Right,

Clip: right,

Neal: right. Yeah, so there’s stuff like that just sprinkled throughout. Doc Halloran is named after Dick Halloran from

Clip: The Shining.

Oh yeah, right.

Neal: When Leslie’s putting on his makeup, the flame retardant makeup. Where they show that scene he’s sitting in front of the mirror, and he’s talking to Taylor about it. He makes a face that is an homage to Donald Sutherland in Invasion of the Body Snatchers.

Clip: Oh,

Neal: I didn’t guess that one.

Clip: Yeah, yeah,

Neal: he makes the same face that he make that Donald Sutherland makes when he points and he’s, you know, revealed himself as a pod person.

So there’s there’s stuff throughout that just if if you’re looking for it, or if you’re like me and just a complete weirdo about it, you seek those out and catch them. So I’m glad some of that stuff actually, like, Still came across like the kids, the nightmare kids doing the jump rope in the background.

Oh, I loved

Craig: it. I, I loved that. And, and for the most part, I mean, again, points to make sure we talk about, we may as well do it now. You mentioned Doc Halloran played by Robert England, like, yes. How, I don’t know. I didn’t do enough research on like, how did this director get. All of these icons, you’ve got Freddy Krueger, you’ve got Jason Voorhees, you’ve got Tangina.

I know Tangine is not as big a get but like, seriously, Robert England. I kind of wish that they had done more with him. I thought it was hilarious what they did. I thought that it was hilarious that they made him a Dr. Loomis clone.

Clip: You know where he is, don’t you? He’s not who you think he is. What’s he calling himself now?

Leslie Vernon? How perfect. I, I, I don’t know. I don’t know who that is. His name is Leslie Mancuso. From Reno, Nevada. You have no idea who you’re dealing

Craig: with. That was great. I wish he would maybe have been a little bit more in it, but still he’s behind the scenes. I loved that.

Neal: Yeah, he’s the ahab That was such a great Convention that they played on there, right?

You know every serial killer needs somebody to come after him It legitimizes their work and it it really kind of adds another layer to it But uh, so there’s a great behind the scenes interview with robert englund where he talks about the How he came across this script and he says, you know, when you’ve been in the business as long as I have, you get sent scripts all the time.

Some of them are good. Some of them are not so good. And I was watching, I was reading this one in the middle of the evening, got late night TV on my wife is cooking dinner or whatever. And next thing you know, it’s two o’clock in the morning. I’m still reading it and I couldn’t put it down. So he, he loved the script and it’s because of him that they got Scott Wilson.

And so, Uh, the Eugene character, uh, he called him up and said, you’ve got to come and do this. You’d be perfect for it. And Wilson, same deal. He, he thinks that they should have turned this into a play and done this on the road.

Todd: Oh, it’s interesting.

Craig: Well, it’s, it’s definitely, I don’t know if I could see it on stage, especially the last act, which we haven’t really talked a lot about, but I, the first part, especially I could see how it could be a play because it feels very much like a character study.

It feels a lot like creep. Frankly, except for instead of just one guy with a camera following a weirdo around. It’s a crew of people following a weirdo around and endearing weirdo. But, but then the third act I thought was. I thought that that was exactly, you know, he, it played out exactly as he said it would.

Mostly are we to believe that Leslie knew that Taylor was the final girl from the beginning? Cause if so, that’s pretty impressive, I guess.

Neal: Yeah, I think, I think from the very beginning he knew, he knew all of it was going to play out exactly that way, including Taylor. Her crew having the change of heart and trying to help save the kids instead of participate in the event.

Craig: hope that you’re right and I believe that you are because I think that that’s the most interesting way to take the story. And again, I know I’ve already mentioned it, but going back to that conversation where they have shown I think a little bit of reluctance and he says to them, look, you guys should leave.

I’ve got to do what I got to do. Like, I, I feel like he gives them an out.

Todd: Yeah. Well, he kind of gives each one of them like a farewell. Yeah. He’s kind of very intentional about it.

Craig: Well, and I, and I think that that that’s fair. Like they know who he is. They know what he’s going to do. And if they try to interfere.

And I think that he was a good, a good bro for giving him a heads up. He, he,

Neal: he wished them luck and then one of the cameramen says, you too.

Todd: And then like a boss, Taylor jumps in the room with him and they’re, and I mean, I’m just sitting here thinking, how are they going to stay out of the way while he does this? I was just so into the movie at this point because it, I did not expect it to go this far and it started to get really disturbing because now this team is here going to ostensibly, well, are they going to tape these murders, you know, how are they going to cut it into their documentary?

Like, these are some real actual moral dilemmas here that they’re going on. And so they’re in the room next door while like two of the people from downstairs or upstairs screwing in the bedroom. Um, And he goes in and hack, hack, hack, and you hear it all happen off screen. Taylor’s obviously disturbed and the guy, I think one of the guys turns to her and goes, Oh shit, this is really happening.

Should I be getting any of this?

Oh my God.

Neal: Yeah. Good job, cameraman. I don’t know if that was Doug or Todd,

Todd: but,

Neal: uh,

Todd: I appreciated that there was still some levity to this, but it was getting pretty serious and I was disturbed and I was really into it. And now I’m thinking, okay, are they going to be in danger if they try to interfere? What happens if they pop their cameras in and then it startles one of the other people and turns them onto Leslie?

Leslie gets angry and then turns on them. You know, there’s just so many different ways this could go. And one of the things that the film does, which I think is really, really smart, is it switches. Suddenly, when it becomes about the journalists and everything, we’re in movie mode. There’s like documentary mode, where everything’s through the camera, and the cameramen are behind, and it looks, you know, shot on video, and the whole nine yards, and shaky cam.

But then, there are a couple moments. First, early on, there are just a couple of them. But as soon as we’ve had this switch and when it’s about the journalist, now the movie looks like a slasher movie. It’s lit like a slasher movie. It, the cinematography is like a slasher movie. And now we’re watching

Craig: it.

Let me jump in just really quick with an example. My favorite example of that was when they were showing that archway outdoors, it was the opposite of phallic imagery, like the outdoor that she had to walk. Okay. Yeah. So, so when they. Film it through the documentary. Of course, it’s very beautiful. It’s a beautiful set piece.

But then later when it’s not the documentary anymore in the film, the lighting, it looks like pet cemetery or something like, so yes, I think that’s very, very clever filmmaking that I mentioned earlier, the structure, but just the difference between the documentary feel and then the film. feel of the end.

Todd: It upped the production value of this movie tremendously. Like up to those moments, you know, it just sort of seemed like this was another found footage type movie shot on a low budget. But then when it gets into the movie thing, it looks, it looks just as slick as any slasher movie from the nineties or early 2000s.

It looks just like it. And so I thought it gave the movie a lot of cred too. You know what I mean?

Neal: I think so. I, I, I totally get that. The use of two. Cameramen to document what was happening was also kind of a really good cheater convention, I guess. They said that one of the cameramen would intentionally shoot kind of dutch style with the the angles and stuff and the other one Would shoot more straight on so you could get alternate angles based on which cameraman was shooting it But then you also It didn’t just feel like a single cam the whole way through, like you could get those cuts in between from different perspectives of the same action that you would get from a normal movie, but then it would look much better when they cut to that cinematic version of the film.

And there’s no score on the documentary parts, but anytime they do, like Leslie, Talking through a hypothetical scenario. Those parts would have a score to it when they did the opening scene

Clip: With

Neal: the girl throwing the trash away in the dumpster that part has some music laid over it So it really kind of helps get you.

All right here. We’re watching the movie here. We’re watching the documentary here. We’re watching the movie

Todd: Yeah, it was I didn’t really score, but you’re right. I mean it was definitely there. Yeah, you’re right

Neal: Yeah for a first time director, I think they they really got the most out of their money for this

Todd: I think so, too.

I was super I

Neal: do too

Craig: This happens all the time, but like, uh, I watch a movie and I’m like, I’m not really exactly sure how I feel about it. And then I sit down and talk about it. And here I am an hour later. I’m like, no, it’s great. You should watch it.

It’s great. There’s so much going on. There’s so many good things about it, but I agree with you. I’m not, I don’t know. I didn’t hear of it either. And I usually have. My eye on the industry, I feel like I kind of have my finger on the pulse. What I, what I have heard is, you know, in the years since it’s come out, it definitely has a following.

Like there are people out there who are big fans of this movie and are like, watch this movie. And I only didn’t because I mistook it. But also I knew when it was over. Okay. So there’s a setup for the ending. It all ends with a cider press,

Todd: an apple cider press. We knew that was coming and

Craig: the final girl and the bad guy with his head in the cider press.

But again, like that was an emotional scene for me. Like it was just a closeup on his face. Face, what does he say? He says something I’m, so

Neal: glad you were the one or something or I just knew you were going to be the one

Craig: You

Neal: guys it’s a love story

They have so many Tight, emotional, like, fleeting moments where you’re like, Oh, these two are into each other. And then, and then it, And then the things move.

Todd: But, I’ve got a question for you guys on this, on this last bit. Like, do you think that was part of his preparation too? That he wouldn’t actually be killed by the Cider Press?

Or was he killed by the Cider Press? The way I interpret it, because he points out this, Oh yeah, I’ve got big plans for the Cider Press at the end. And assuming everything went according to his plan, She kills him in the Cider Press, Or thinks she kills him in the Cider Press, Because later during the And then burns him up, burns up Oh, burns up the Yeah, and then sets fire to everything, right?

Which is classic. So Then, as you said earlier, Craig, there’s a post credits scene where his body is pulled out and the guy who’s getting ready to do the autopsy or whatever, prep the body, his back is turned to him, and just as the credits are about to end, you see him sit up, which we all saw coming, it follows the convention, but it makes me think that maybe, again, all of the stuff that he’s been doing has been to follow convention, so I wondered if, too, he had prepared himself to fake his death and resurrect himself again.

Did you guys think that at all?

Neal: I did, and it was because of him mentioning, when he was putting on the makeup, that it was a mixture of Preparation H and his own homemade fire retardant.

Craig: Yes! Right!

Neal: So he knew that he was going to get burnt up at some point. And so he had planned for that and then This is not in the movie.

This is something I saw later But either the director or one of the producers posted on tiktok or something how? Leslie faked his death.

Clip: Oh while

Neal: he’s how while he’s in the cider press it cuts to a Underneath the cider press, his hand reaches under and grabs a nutcracker and cracks a walnut at the same time that Taylor spins the thing.

So, she doesn’t go back to check. The original intent was the mask would shatter under the weight of the thing, pressing on him. But they, this little clip, it’s like a 15 second clip, but it shows, you know, him Getting his head put into the cider press her twisting twisting and then it cuts to this shot of his hand reaching under Grabbing this walnut cracker and then she does the final spin and you hear the crunch and then it cuts away Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

Craig: Man That’s funny

Clip: Oh,

Craig: it is really clever.

I was just under the impression. Cause he says at one point, this night’s going to end one of three ways. Like either I’m going to be on the run or I’m going to be on death row or I’m going to be dead or something like that. So I think that he was prepared for. He knew that he might be bested. And I felt like in that moment at the end, he was like, well, if this is the way that it was going to happen, I’m glad it was you like, it’s even though, you know, it’s, it’s still, even for him, a satisfying ending now, whether or not he planned it or whether or not he knew that he would rise again, I mean, he probably thought he might cause they always do, or maybe, maybe they always have a nutcracker or Something that fakes their death.

I don’t know, but

Neal: I was gonna say I heard that they had actually shot a different ending where Taylor is on Trial for the events that happened on that night.

Clip: Oh

Neal: Uh, because, you know, she’s the only one, she’s the primary survivor. Somebody had to do all of these murders and stuff, so she’s on, on trial, but they, they ended up not keeping it because they didn’t have enough people.

They wanted the courtroom to really feel full and stuff, but the way they had shot it was that Taylor’s on trial. They’ve got a live feed of the coroner’s office, the feed that we see. And Doc Halloran bursts in and it’s like, you guys don’t know what you’re doing. He’s planned this the whole time. This is what he wants.

He needs an audience. He needs an audience. And that’s when you see him sit up

Clip: Take out

Neal: the coroner and then swipe the camera and then that’s how the movie ends That would have been kind of glad they didn’t go with that It’s I mean, it’s cool, but i’m glad they didn’t go with that. I think that you can actually see a plot Like, two seconds of that, in one of the trailers, you see Robert Englund yelling, He needs an audience!

Clip: Um,

Neal: it’s in one, one trailer that’s still floating around out there. But they said they didn’t keep it because they couldn’t have enough people to make the courtroom look believable. If he’s terrorized this whole town, you, you would probably want. Or if somebody has terrorized this whole town and is using the town’s legend as a backdrop for committing a bunch of murders, you’d think that the courtroom would be fully

Todd: packed up.

I mean, the reason I think it would be cool is because I was kind of waiting for the Doc Hallorann character to come back in and do something at the end, you know, kind of like in Halloween, you know, where he walks out. Michael Myers’s body is suddenly not there. You know, I thought there would be some moment anyway for him to kind of have a last thing instead of well, he’s alive and he kind of limps away and then that’s the last you see of him.

Craig: His whole role is very much a cameo. He has maybe, what, one or two lines. I don’t know. Still happy

Neal: to see him. Still fun. Yeah, and he’s why I made the suggestion, because he just got his star on the Walk of Fame.

Todd: That’s right! Yeah. Well deserved. Very well deserved, that star. What

Neal: did you think of the use of, uh, Psycho Killer over the final credits?

Clip: I

Neal: loved it. What a perfect

Clip: song.

Neal: I have had that in my head. All week because of this, I can’t stop playing it and humming it. Well, the

Todd: movie sets itself up for a sequel and supposedly they, they did write script, but what I read, and I don’t remember how long ago this was, um, the director just kind of reevaluated and said, look, if we were to shoot this, a sequel to this, obviously we want the right script and the sequel script that we already wrote.

It’s too dated. by now because I don’t know, it’s kind of like more going to be referencing the torture porn era and the found footage and stuff like that. And that’s so far behind us now that I think they were like, that would, that would feel too dated if we did that now. Thankfully, the slasher thing is not still not dated, right?

Like that seems like pretty evergreen. So this movie, like I said, it feels like it could have been shot yesterday. And the reason why I like and I recommend it is because I do get a little tired of the meta horror movies. Just because I get it now, you know, like how many ways can you tell me the same things?

You know, how many ways can you rattle off the conventions to me and then ha ha I see that you subvert them Or something like that This movie just does it in a totally different way I’ve never seen and in a way that you know from that perspective of us being behind the the killer in this very mundane Sort of way And also him being so affable and all that and the layers that we’ve just kind of brought up in in here I just Thought this movie was so clever and so fun.

I was just with it the whole time and I loved it and I can’t believe I hadn’t seen it and I can’t believe that the reason I hadn’t seen it is not popular. People don’t know about it. What the hell? How do people not know about this movie? So my recommendation is you guys are listening to this podcast.

You’re as big a horror fan as we are. You are going to be the people who are going to eat this up and it’s going to be a very different kind of metal horror than you’ve seen before. You got to give it a try and you got to go out and watch it. It’s great.

Neal: Yep. You can find it on YouTube. The whole movie streaming.

Todd: That’s where we watch it. Yeah, good quality. We’re all about free.

Neal: Good quality. Perfect quality. Even the the gratuitous boob shot in there is intact.

Craig: I’m so glad you brought it up. It was on my list. I think he just crossed off the page.

Neal: I want to make sure that that got mentioned because I don’t want anybody to be caught off guard.

Craig: Oh god and the like it comments on itself like oh my god isn’t that a little gratuitous as she’s popping her nipples out.

Oh, so good. So good. Good job. Good job. No, I’m,

Neal: I’m so You should,

Craig: you should host a

Neal: podcast. I appreciate it. I appreciate it. Maybe I’ll bring one back at some point. You know, I’m happy to come on and chat with you guys at any time. If you got other movies and you just feel you want to break things up a little bit.

Feel free, give me a call. I will Oh

Craig: man, it was a great time. It’s been a pleasure having you on

Neal: the show. Thank you guys so much, and thank you for all the years of great content. Thank you for doing my suggestions. You guys got me with Once Bitten, and Anna and the Apocalypse, and this is probably the third or fourth suggestion that I’ve gotten.

given you guys, that you guys have done. So I can’t say enough how much I appreciate it.

Todd: Wow. That’s true. Neil’s been feeding the fire more than I remember.

Craig: I remember, I, I remember how excited Todd and I were about Anna and the Apocalypse, like neither of us We’re like, holy

Neal: shit!

Craig: Why have

Todd: we not heard this one before?

Neal: It’s like Christmas movie, horror movie, musical. Come on now, how has this not been done before?

Todd: You’re our research wing. Oh

Neal: I will, I’ll shoot you guys whatever I can think of that would be a fun watch and a fun conversation.

Todd: Well, thank you so much for joining us today, Neil. And thank you all your listeners out there for joining us for yet another week. We really appreciate each and every one of you. If you want to leave us a message like Neil did, all you’ve got to do is go to our website, ChainsawHorror. com And there’s a little link at the top that says talk to us.

You can leave us a quick message. You don’t have to download any special software or anything like that. And, uh, and that’ll shoot right to us. And we, we listen to those. We respond to those. We love hearing from you in whatever form that takes. You can also leave us a message on any one of our places. Uh, just two guys in a chainsaw podcast.

We’ll take you to our website where there’s a comment section. We’ll take you to our Facebook page where we post stuff up on Instagram. Also, our Patreon, patreon. com slash, uh, Chainsaw Podcast. If you go there, you will also have a chance to get behind the scenes like Neil has himself and become part of the crew.

Chat, chat back there, uh, vote on the requests that we have coming up. A lot of good stuff going on behind the scenes. Please consider supporting us back there as well. Until next time, I’m Todd. And I’m Craig. And I’m Neil. With Two Guys and a Chainsaw

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