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A Pudgy Belly Can Be a Strong Core
Manage episode 455086262 series 3363466
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You’re listening to Burnt Toast!
I’m Virginia Sole-Smith, and today my guest is .
Anna is a health journalist, editor, content strategist, personal trainer, and author of the newsletter . Anna also created Pilates For Abortion Funds, a monthly online class that has raised about $30,000 for abortion funds since July 2022. She has been an ACE-certified personal trainer since 2015, and a certified mat pilates instructor since 2021. She’s also a certified prenatal and postpartum exercise specialist. Anna lives in Brooklyn with her husband, two kids, and two extremely cute cats.
Anna was previously a guest on one of Burnt Toast’s most popular ever episodes, The Myth of Visible Abs.
What’s so great about Anna—and what makes her different from a lot of fitness writers and personal trainers out there—is that she’s so smart about bodies, she’s truly anti-diet and size neutral as a fitness professional…and, she’s been in the belly of the beast. Anna worked in women’s magazines with me long enough to know all the diet culture tricks. So she’s one of my favorite people to talk fitness with, because she can dissect what is marketing, what is diet culture, and what is actually maybe useful for your body.
Two content warnings for today:
1. We are going to talk about specific forms of exercise. This will always be through a weight neutral lens, but if you’re recovering from an eating disorder or just otherwise in a place where exercise is not serving you, please take care.
2. CW for Butter, because we ended up talking quite a lot about toilets! And while I feel it’s all incredibly practical information and you’re going to thank me for my great Butter recommendation this week, I do realize that toilet conversation is not for everyone. It’s usually not for me! So I get it! You’ve been warned.
PS. You can always listen to this pod right here in your email, where you’ll also receive full transcripts (edited and condensed for clarity). But please also follow us in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, and/or Pocket Casts! And if you enjoy today’s conversation, please tap the heart on this post — likes are one of the biggest drivers of traffic from Substack’s Notes, so that’s a super easy, free way to support the show!
Episode 171 Transcript
Virginia
Last time you were on the podcast, we talked specifically about how diet culture has co-opted ab workouts. This was inspired by a viral Twitter thread you wrote back then—back when we were on Twitter, back when we called it Twitter—where you really laid out how core muscles are super important, but the way the fitness industry markets workouts just completely misses the point.
So can you walk us through that a little bit? Because every time I even bring that up with people minds are blown.
Anna
There’s so much here, but I think the TLDR is that abs—flat abs, defined abs, visible abs—have a real hold on us as a culture. They have forever, unfortunately, and diet culture knows that. They’re going to use this promise of visible abs to get you to buy a bunch of stuff which is sketchy at best. Because for the vast majority of people those visible, defined abs are not a realistic, or at least a sustainable, goal.
What’s frustrating for me is that all of that is kind of a distraction from the many ways in which having strong and functional abs is great for you and can help you move and feel better. So I find it self-defeating. Visible ab talk is feeding into diet culture, and it’s not supporting us in any way.
Virginia
It really is wild that this very specific aesthetic trait—the ability to have visible stomach muscles, which only certain body types are going to be able to pull off even with a lot of effort—that has become our focus. Sometimes I just have to take a minute and think: Why do we care so much about how someone’s stomach muscles look like? It’s really weird.
Anna
For some reason Botox and forehead wrinkles are popping into my head. This is a bad metaphor because your forehead doesn’t really do anything for you. But what if your forehead had some amazing function, and we were distracting ourselves with the aesthetics of it by spending all this money on Botox. It’s adding this whole additional layer of functional purpose on top of the ridiculousness of the diet salesmanship of it.
Virginia
You revisited this whole conversation recently on which I want everyone to subscribe to, because it’s fantastic. You wrote a piece that was in conversation with a piece by another fitness writer we both like, Casey Johnston, who wrote a piece called the core workout is a scam.
Casey pointed out that even major fitness influencers on Tiktok will talk about how they make content with ab exercises that they actually don’t even do themselves, because they know that abs, abs, abs is what gets engagement. This brought me back to some of our lady mag days. I don’t know about you, Anna, this felt familiar to some of those workouts that we put on magazine covers.
Anna
I love Casey. I really admire her work, and I think she’s so right that influencers and whoever else is trying to sell you workouts, they definitely post this kind of like core workout or ab workout very intentionally. It’s not necessarily that it’s a good workout. It’s not that it’s what the influencer does. It’s not that it’s going to achieve that aesthetic.
It’s that you’re looking at this influencer, you see their body, you see them post this thing, and you’re like, “Ooh, if I do that thing, I’ll get that body.” That’s definitely a scam. I think it was kind of wild to see the influencer that Casey included in her piece, she had posted on Tiktok just saying outright, “I used to be this very toxic fitness influencer. I posted these ab workouts. It was completely a fake. I never did it. I only posted it for engagement.” It definitely reminded me of those kind of get ripped abs, toned core in 10 days—those kinds of cover lines that we used to write at magazines.
Virginia
The workouts we would write that nobody was doing.
Anna
Exactly, and it’s so similar because you would look at this beautiful, thin, toned, cover model next to these cover lines. Did that model ever do that workout?
Virginia
No, absolutely not. Not even the model in the shoot for that workout! Other than when she was posing for the photos.
Anna
Yes. She would show up on set looking like that. She would leave set looking like that. And she would never do that workout ever again.
Virginia
It’s just wild. I hope that’s the kind of thing that people know, but I don’t think it is. It’s hard, when you look at this content, to separate the myth from reality with what you’re seeing. Even for those of us in the industry, it’s hard not to see those workouts and think, oh, okay, what is that? What works for that? It’s so easy to get sucked in.
Anna
Yes, I think that we all have that instinct to think that’s going to work. And not all of us have this sort of baked-in layer of skepticism or or even knowledge that that’s not what’s actually going on.
So I thought Casey’s piece was really interesting. This idea that ab workouts are a scam. She’s a big fan, of course, of heavy lifting and barbell focused workouts, and I definitely am, too. I love barbells. I love lifting as heavy as I can, although I personally don’t use barbells as much as I would really like to these days. And Casey suggests that if you’re doing those kinds of workouts, you’re getting plenty of core work.
I think that is probably true. If you’re doing a really heavy deadlift with a barbell, your core is working really hard to support your spine during that movement, even just carrying those those plates and lifting them up to put them on the bar, the twisting, all of that is really amazing, functional core work. But I also think most people are not doing those kinds of workouts.
Virginia
That’s not a very accessible workout for a lot of people.
Anna
Even if you are doing strength exercises with lighter weights at home, you’re probably getting some core work as well. But it’s not necessarily all the core work you could ever need in the world.
So I’m kind of thinking of Casey’s piece with a little bit of caveat. It’s like, yes, if you’re doing all that stuff, you’re probably golden. Probably most people are not doing that stuff. Probably you could benefit from more.
And I also think that even if you are someone doing a heavy barbell workout, there’s still a chance you could benefit from a little bit of additional core work. And I’m not talking about the scammy influencer 20 minute ab workouts. I’m talking about some very functional, core focused strengthening movements which can also help make your lifts better.
SO I take it with a grain of salt. Basically anything that bills itself as a core workout you could, could probably raise an eyebrow to. But I don’t think it’s true that core exercises across the board are worthless.
Virginia
No, it’s that they’ve been marketed for the wrong purpose. They have lots of value in terms of building functional core strength, but they’re sold to us as weight loss, get a visible six pack, etc. And so the scam is how they put all your focus on that aesthetic goal, which is going to be out of reach no matter how many core exercises you do, versus the strength building part and the function part.
Let’s drill into that a little bit more. What do you think is the value of core workouts? And on behalf of of my people who have always hated core exercises: What are some ways you can reframe how you think about core strength so it doesn’t feel like, Oh God, that’s the part of the workout I hate the most.
Anna
Yes, totally. So what is it for? I’ll just quote Casey’s piece, because I thought this was really smart.
The whole point of a core is that it needs to be able to connect and coordinate the other parts of the body in order to be effective. Cores can’t learn to be the solid, coordinating central conduit for movement by doing, for instance, a five-minute plank alone.
So it’s all part of a system. The point of a core is not just to be strong in isolation. It’s to be strong in a way that supports movement throughout the rest of your body, whether it’s laying down in a bed and then getting back up out of that bed, or picking up something heavy, or holding something heavy in one hand and something light in the other hand, and not getting completely out of whack and of balance.
Whether you’re building that strength by doing a heavy barbell workout like Casey likes to do, or something more like Pilates, which I teach, we’re always loading your core by moving the extremities in different ways. Those are both great examples of this whole thing working as a system.
Virginia
As you’re saying that, I’m realizing how much the “core in isolation” is, again, part of diet culture. Because that’s about the aesthetics and not about the function.
Anna
Exactly. It doesn’t make sense to do a workout like Pilates all the time. It makes sense to do it maybe once or twice a week as a foundation to the other things that you’re doing, because if you can make your core, your pelvic floor, your back muscles work really functionally in tandem with the rest of your body, then the other kinds of movements that you’re doing throughout the week will be easier. And that’s movement whether it’s a workout or dancing or walking, or I have a client who owns a bookstore, so she’s picking up heavy boxes, putting things away on a shelf, and reaching and taking things up and down stairs. It’s going to support all of those other things. So it’s a really helpful thing to do. But it’s not that you need to do it every single day, you know?
I will say, though, when I see something like “core workouts are a scam,” I do kind of cringe about that a little bit. Because there are definitely lots of people who don’t enjoy a core workout, and it’s not their thing—no shade at all. But there are also people who really love the 20 minute abs class at their gym. Do they need to be doing that? Is it completely necessary? Maybe not, but if they really like it, and it gets them active, and it gets them feeling good in their body— keep doing it. You don’t have to stop.
Virginia
We’re not here to shame anyone who loves a 20-minute ab class. I am fascinated by you, but I respect that you have that preference.
Anna
I just don’t want to make people feel bad about what they’re doing, because the most important thing is to do something right? We want to help people find something that you can do and that you can sustain. So let’s open your mind to other ways of moving that might be supportive in other ways. But let’s also not get disheartened because we’re seeing that this is not “the perfect way”to exercise or whatever.
Virginia
Totally. And I’ll also just share, as someone who does identify as hating core work, I have come to appreciate it so much more through your workouts and through talking to you about it, because it’s made me realize how much the “I hate core workouts” came from knowing I’m never going to have the visible six pack. Being able to put that down means now I do notice, ohhh, when I get my core properly engaged, my back hurts so much less. Taking the giant bag of dog food in from the curb feels less painful. I get off the floor a lot more easily after giving my seven-year-old a bath. it’s these small things that are really not that small, actually.
Anna
Yeah, I couldn’t agree more. It’s almost about safety in your body, right? I’m capable of doing these things. I don’t have to feel fear around movement. I’m comfortable moving throughout the day. There’s so much to be said for that. You say they’re they’re small things, but they’re not really small.
I really want to encourage people to get to know how their body responds to exercise because of all this noise about aesthetics, we haven’t been trained to notice these more internal or intrinsic kind of things, but if you can tap into functional changes, or just how you feel moving through the day. Are you waking up a little less creaky? Are you able to pick that thing up, or are you able to bend down into the bath more comfortably?
Virginia
Shampooing a fast-moving seven-year-old is quite the core workout, in fact.
Anna
Wrestle them into their jackets and all that stuff. This goes back to the central question of why is the myth of visible abs so frustrating? There are so many other things that not just abs, but a functional and strong body, can do for you. To me, those things are better motivators.
I exercise also because of back pain. What got me started on exercise, and got me sticking with exercise, was that I was throwing my back out all the time. And I do that a whole lot less if I’m active regularly. And that’s a really good motivator, and it is achievable and it’s noticeable. And I get punished if I’m not doing it, because my back hurts.
Virginia
Yep. It’s a real one to one connection.
Anna
We have to also talk about people who do need core-specific exercises. It’s a bit more of a rehabilitation focus, but that might include people who are recovering from an injury or surgery. And especially people who are recovering from childbirth, whether that’s a vaginal birth or C-section. A pretty functional body who’s not in that situation, they’ll get really great core work from whatever the else they’re doing, chances are. But in these situations, I do think that isolating your core and targeting your core muscles from a rehabilitative standpoint, is really important. And I think if, like those of us who are who are listening, who’ve had a baby at home, like a brand new baby that they gave birth to, have probably had that experience of like, “Oh my god, where, where are my abs? Where is my core?”
Virginia
They have left the building.
Anna
I can’t do anything. They’ve left the building. And it’s temporary. It’s okay. They will be back. You need to heal. You need to recover. But it’s kind of funny, because you’ll get the advice that you shouldn’t lift anything heavier than five or ten pounds or don’t pick up anything heavy. Try not to do anything until you’ve had more time to heal. But like when you have a new baby at home, you’re picking up and putting down a growing baby
Virginia
Plus a car seat!
Anna
75 times a day. I just remember nursing in bed and then trying to get up out of the bed while holding the baby, and you’re basically doing a weighted sit-up. It’s so, so brutal. And it’s not realistic to say you can’t do any of that stuff until you’ve rehabilitated your core. You need to be able to live your life. But I think that working with rehabilitative exercises as you’re working through your day to day life, is going to make it easier. You’re going to get better, you’re going to start to heal, you’re going to regain that strength so much better than if you’re just not doing any of the rehab and only doing this sort of demands of daily life.
So I want to say, if you’re in that situation—and I think this is also true if you’ve had some kind of abdominal or pelvic or hip surgery—and you’re recovering and you have to have that rest period, rehabilitative exercises can be really, really supportive.
Virginia
What I’m thinking as you’re talking too, is how all of these benefits we’re talking about have absolutely nothing to do with weight loss. This isn’t about, are you losing the baby weight? This isn’t about anything to do with that.
And yet, again, because of the way diet culture trains us to think about core in the past, if I wasn’t losing weight, I wasn’t aware of these benefits. It was harder to tune into these benefits, or if I did notice these benefits, I credited them with any weight loss that was happening. But whether your weight changes or not from exercise is its own separate thing. We could just put that over here. It might happen, it might not. And the core stuff, you can achieve that whether or not the weight changes. And I just want to name that, because I think that’s another place this gets so, so tangled.
Anna
Yes, I think that’s so important. There’s a wonderful perinatal coach named Jessie Mundell, who I’m a huge fan of. She takes a super inclusive approach. And she’s in a larger body. I think I texted you when I did her postpartum certification program, and I was like, “Virginia! There are fitness models in this program in larger bodies! It’s so helpful. It’s amazing. It exists.” And she likes to say, and I’m gonna gonna get the exact words wrong, but it’s something like, you can have a round, pudgy, poochy, cellulite, diastasis recti belly and a functional core. The aesthetics do not predict the functionality.
Virginia
That’s so helpful. It’s so important. Especially if you have the diastasis or the poochy belly, you just think, “Well, that’s it. I will never have a strong core.” And that can just be defeating to even starting with this kind of exercise. So, so important to name.
Anna
Yeah. There are elite athletes who are competing with a three or four finger diastasis.
Virginia
The other piece of this you touched on a little bit is the back pain piece. And I love to talk about back pain because it’s one of my personal hobbies and key personality traits.
Anna
I don’t love that for you.
Virginia
Well, it’s becoming much less of a hobby, but for a long time it was. And, I just think back pain is so, so common, especially in our demographic. Whether you’re post-kids or just in perimenopause. There’s a lot of back pain in in our world. And it has absolutely blown my mind as I’ve been doing your workouts, and I do Lauren Leavell’s strength training videos, and recently I’ve switched into heavier weights—not barbells, but going from like, 10 pounds to 20 pounds. And… my back is having so many fewer problems.
And I don’t get it, Anna. I don’t get it! Because like you were saying, we’re told don’t lift heavy things, be so careful. And for so long, I had this narrative of myself as “oh my back goes out all the time, so I’m kind of fragile,” and need to be really careful.
But that turns out to be a lie? So please just explain that.
Anna
Okay, I’m gonna go deep here, so stay with me.
So some of this is coming from from Anna the trainer, but a lot of this is coming from Anna the journalist and Anna the content strategist, who works at a physical therapy company. I spend a lot of time with physical therapists.
And there’s this interesting concept in the physical therapy world called movement optimism, and it gets at what you’re saying, which is maybe moving your body is a better approach for dealing with pain than avoiding movement. Reframing movement as positive and supportive versus the idea like, “this movement is safe and this movement is unsafe” is generally a more helpful approach.
I think there’s there can be so much fear around movement for people. And I think a lot of people with chronic pain, recurring injuries, even a history of body trauma, can start to think of themselves as weak and fragile, and think of movement as something they really need to be careful about. And while it may be true that like, okay, a certain type of movement maybe was sort of the catalyst for the pain that you’re experiencing, pain is so much more complex than many of us realize.
I’m going to credit two PTs here that I’ve interviewed recently about this, Dylan Peterson in California and Ann Nwabuebo in DC. Those interviews are going to be on my Substack soon, hopefully. Full disclosure, I’m not a DPT. This is like a DPT level conversation, but I’m going to walk through some of what I’ve learned from them.
So it’s not just that physical trauma of the injury itself that is contributing to your pain. There’s a huge emotional or psychological element. We know that we hold stress and tension in many parts of our body, like for a lot of us, it’s like our neck, our shoulders, our jaw, pelvic floor, hips.
Virginia
Maybe all of the above.
Anna
Absolutely. There’s also a big link between things like anxiety, depression, PTSD and aches and pains and which way it goes could be either way, right?
Virginia
Oh, interesting. Yeah, makes sense.
Anna
Then there are postural issues. So we know that the way that we carry ourselves, or sit or stand or move can contribute to pain. Tension, discomfort in our bodies. Next, there’s inflammation and inflammatory conditions, whether it’s a GI condition or even something like endometriosis or fibroids, those conditions can contribute to or just even be related to greater inflammation throughout the body. Our muscles and soft tissues can respond accordingly.
And then finally, there’s this concept called central sensitization, which it basically means our bodies have experienced pain in the past, and so they almost go into overdrive trying to protect us from future damage by sending us these pain signals, even when our body isn’t in any real danger. It’s like our brain is really trying to help us that it’s like going too far and causing pain where we’re not actually like causing tissue damage with that movement.
First of all, of course, if our muscles are stronger, more mobile, better able to provide us stability in those places where we’ve had pain before, whether it’s your back, hip and knee, we’ll theoretically be able to move through that area with less discomfort. And that’s where those really targeted exercises like you do in physical therapy can come in. There’s this phrase the PTs I work with use that goes, “motion is lotion.”
But then if you think back to all those other factors we just talked about, tension, stress, you know, posture, sensitization, inflammation, we know that movement can be really supportive for all those things. And you know, movement helps with stress and tension. Movement helps with mental health. Movement might help you with the way you’re holding yourself. Movement can help you reduce inflammation.
Even that sensitization concept that one is a little bit maybe harder to wrap your head around, if you haven’t thought about it too much. Movement can allow us to sort of gently nudge into that pain and then tell our brain, hey, this movement isn’t dangerous. You can back off with the pain. I’m okay doing this. You don’t have to send those signals quite as as strong as you’ve been sending them.
Virginia
Oh, that’s fascinating.
Anna
Yeah. So it’s like exercise, yes, ideally, it’s going to strengthen and improve mobility, which should reduce pain, but it can improve all of these other factors as well.
I do want to say something specifically about back pain, though, because back pain is tricky. And I want to go back to that Casey Johnston article that we were talking about. She notes, correctly, that there’s a sort of widespread idea that core work is the answer to back pain. We’ve all heard that if your back hurts, probably your core is weak. It can be true. It isn’t necessarily true. The research is a little surprising, because it seems to find that pretty much all kinds of exercise are helpful for back pain.
So core exercises can certainly improve pain and support posture if you have chronic low back pain. So it’s not necessarily that people are wrong by saying you need to do core work, but Casey is right that core work is not the only way. There’s some really interesting research that says core exercises, strength training, and even aerobic exercise, all have similar benefits for back pain. Which tells me it’s basically like, again, movement optimism. It’s better to move your body for back pain than not move your body. And it almost doesn’t matter what you’re doing. And I think it’s sort of like really goes back to pain being multifactorial, and exercise, kind of no matter what you’re doing, can really support all of those factors.
Virginia
So just to drill in a little deeper for folks who struggle with this, if you’re in an acute flare up of back pain, we’re not saying, go lift a 40-pound weight. But the idea that “because I’m someone who gets acute back pain, I shouldn’t do this type of movement,” that’s what we’re trying to kind of push back against.
Anna
Yes, exactly. In the moment of acute back pain, there are things that you can tap into here, things like trying to stay as relaxed as you can, taking deep breaths, even just telling yourself, I’m okay, it’s okay, I don’t have to be scared. I’ll get through this. Like, those kinds of messages can actually like, be really powerful.
But it can be really hard to navigate. Like, okay, I know I should move. What does that actually mean? What can I do? What should I do? I don’t want to overdo it, and I totally understand that. And I think that that is, you know, I’ll say semi-unfortunately, where a PT comes in, because I know PT can be, it can be hard to access.
Virginia
But it’s a game changer when you can find a good PT.
Anna
Yeah, if you can find a good PT, it is super helpful, and they can help you navigate the do’s and don’ts and again, I don’t really want to like frame movement as safe versus unsafe, but just like, how reduced does your pain need to be for you to start pushing into it a little bit, nudging into that pain? I think there are scales of one to ten that PTs will use. Like, okay, if you’re an eight to ten, like, probably just resting, taking some deep breaths, maybe some very gentle stretches, is the way to go. But then beyond that, they’ll give you some guidance for how much to try and how far to go. But I do think just generally reframing rest may not be best, movement may be supportive. That can be really helpful.
Virginia
Yeah, it is so helpful. And again, it just feels like one of those things that you’re like, well, I’ve just been told this backwards. I think it comes back to the way we’re taught to equate movement with body size and shape as opposed to function, and how that underserves us.
Any other fun fitness trends, myths, or anything else where you’re like, “Could we please be done with this already!” that you want to talk about before we wrap up?
Anna
I don’t know if it’s fun. There’s this social media trend that I think of as “the actually trend.” Which is basically experts, whether they’re self-styled experts or legitimate experts, going around and letting you know that “everything you’ve heard about X or Y is wrong. These exercises are garbage. If you’re not doing these exercises, you’re wasting your time. Anyone who says this is wrong.”
And I think that this is generally well intentioned. I know where it comes from, because I sometimes get that instinct myself. I see bad information, and I’m like, ooh, I want to correct this. I want to go out there and say, “actually, this is wrong!” But I think what it results in, especially when we’re talking about specific modalities of exercise, is confusion and discouragement for people.
Because if somebody is doing an activity that they like or they feel proud about doing, and somebody is like, kind of shitting on it, then it can make them feel really unconfident, less optimistic about movement, less sure of themselves.
Virginia
Is it worth doing? Am I wasting my time?
Anna
And it’s sort of like the abs thing in that, it leaves people kind of vulnerable. Maybe they’re more likely to buy something or hit subscribe, because they’re like oh, I thought this was right, but it’s wrong.
Virginia
Oh, I think it’s 100 percent diet culture. Even though I see anti-diet creators doing it too, sometimes, I think it’s rooted in is diet culture. The whole business model of diet culture is telling you that you can’t be right about any of this. You don’t know how to eat, you don’t know how to move your body. You need to invest in this other system that’s going to tell you all the rules.
So it’s very much that same model of “everything you thought about this was wrong,” and now we’re going to tell you the right way to have a body. And it just undercuts people’s ability to be authorities on their own bodies.
Anna
Exactly. And that’s what my work comes down to. I want people to have the tools that they need to feel more confident and more capable moving. And I get that instinct too, it’s a very click-y concept. But I don’t want to get followers or subscribers because people are feeling really unsure of themselves or ashamed or confused.
I feel like I’m constantly saying: Don’t let what’s optimal get in the way of what’s sustainable. And what I mean by that is, of course, it’s really important to look at research and listen to experts and know what’s effective, what’s most supportive of our well-being. But there’s also a limit to that, because when it comes to exercise, most people aren’t doing it. Most people aren’t doing it at all. And the people who are doing it aren’t doing, technically, “enough” of it. I think there’s a stat that, like, about 75% of adults do not meet physical activity guidelines. Because it’s really hard! No one has time or energy to exercise. For parents or caregivers, exercise requires all these systemic supports that we don’t have in our culture. It’s really hard to take care of yourself.
So I want to share messages about helping people get active and stay active, period, in whatever way will allow them to just keep doing it. Yes, there are some things that are going to be more important for heart health and bone density and all those other good things. But the important thing is to move. Moving is better than not moving. If you can do a little bit more movement than you were before, that’s good. Whatever is going to allow you to do it long term is great. So I don’t want to “actually,” people.
Virginia
I’ll often get reader questions like, “Do we really need to do whatever many minutes per week of movement?” whatever those gold standards are, and every time I look into it, it’s sort of like, well, sure, there’s some research to support that—but if nobody can achieve this gold standard in their life, then how is is useful? How is that relevant to anybody? We should be focused on making whatever we can make doable for folks.
Anna
Exactly. I also think that the “actually” thing can can lead to some very confusing trends. And one, one good example of this, I think, is the Kegel backlash.
Virginia
People started to hate Kegels for some reason!
Anna
Exactly, and it’s like, why did we swing so far the other way?
Virginia
Why did we get militantly against Kegels?
Anna
We’ve made a lot of leaps and bounds in the last couple of decades in pelvic health, both in terms of the knowledge that we have the practitioners that are available. And the stigma has kind of gone away, you can talk about pelvic health and your symptoms and whatever, which is all great.
But it used to be that the main pelvic floor condition anyone knew about was stress incontinence, which came from what weak pelvic floor muscles, and so you would get Kegels like, do your Kegels. That was just like the blanket, if you have a pelvic floor problem, you need to do Kegels. And now we’ve made a lot of progress. We know that some conditions, especially like urinary urgency, pelvic pain, often stem from too much pelvic floor tension, which means Kegels could backfire and worsen those symptoms.
Virginia
Okay. So I get some of the resistance to Kegels if they’ve been underserving folks.
Anna
And it’s very important to get that knowledge out there, because you don’t want to make those symptoms worse. But then you get this telephone effect where, just, Kegels are bad. No one should be doing them. Anyone who mentions Kegels doesn’t know what they’re talking about, which is also not true. Just like other musculoskeletal conditions, it’s multifactorial. The idea that this is good, this is bad. I know what you need, needs to be taken with a grain of salt. But when it comes to the pelvic floor, especially like the only person who really knows what your pelvic floor needs is a DPT, like a pelvic floor PT or OT, who has done an assessment on you. The real message should be, pelvic floor symptoms are treatable. You need to see a specialist to deal with them.
Virginia
That’s really helpful. That is so interesting. I think it is just another example of how the diet culture framing and marketing gets mixed in with the message. When content creators are selling a course or selling whatever, it’s just hard to separate that from from they may have some really good information to share, but if they’re leaning into that actually everything you thought was wrong mindset, like, that’s the marketing. That’s probably not entirely true, and that’s helpful for us all to keep in mind.
Any other bad fitness trends on your mind?
Anna
There’s something that that I think is really tricky, which is this concept of movement feeling good, this idea that you should find movement that feels great, or that you feel joyful doing. Which I think is a lovely concept, and I think people have really good intentions when they say this kind of thing. I think it’s really helpful to an extent, especially if you’re someone who’s working on building a more positive, less punishing relationship with exercise. Tapping into something that you actually feel good doing and what helps your body feel good can be super helpful.
But there are a couple of caveats to this that I think are important. One is that for some people, movement generally does not feel good, whether they have chronic pain, they’ve experienced trauma, they have a disability or some kind of illness, or for many other reasons. Exercise may not ever be something that feels good or joyful for some folks. And so this idea that it needs to feel good canexclude a lot of people. When maybe, if you’re in that boat, you can still get a lot of benefits from finding movement that you can just kind of tolerate consistently.
Virginia
Yeah, where it’s okay, but not great. There’s something very ableist “movement should be joyful.” And sort of controlling? We don’t all have to like the same things! I’m someone for whom it’s just always more joyful to read a book on the couch.
Anna
I do think if you’re in that boat where you have some sort of condition where movement feels very uncomfortable, it can really help to find some guidance. I wish I could give you a really specific resource, but it’s very condition specific, I think. Try to get a little help, whether it’s an online program or a trainer that you can work with, even just for a couple of sessions, just to say, “Everything kind of feels bad. I know I need to move, so what’s the bare minimum that I need to do, or what can I do?”
The other big caveat for me as a trainer about “joyful movement,” is that if you’re looking to make gains in terms of muscle mass, bone density, cardiovascular health, it can be very helpful to get comfortable with discomfort. You are going to need to push yourself.
I have recently started presenting a monthly strength training workout, and I want people to engage in progressive overload, where each week they add—well maybe not each week, hopefully each week, it depends on the person. But maybe they add a little bit of weight. They’re able to do a little more. The only way you can really do that is if you push. And by the end of your set, your muscles are kind of shaking, and you can barely finish that final couple of reps. That is where you get stronger.
I talk about this a lot because I’m not a big cardio person, and I really should be. We all should be probably doing cardio, even though it sucks. No shade if you’re a cardio lover. But if you want to improve your resting heart rate, your VO2 Max, those markers of cardiovascular wellness, you also need to do a progressive training approach where you’re pushing yourself to whether it’s run or walk or bike or whatever, a little faster, a little farther. You need to keep loading your cardiovascular system and challenging yourself so that you can see those improvements that you’re looking for.
That might not always feel very good, but I do think it goes back to like what we were talking about earlier, noticing what are the other improvements that you feel throughout the day? Maybe your workout feels like, oh my god. That kind of sucked. That was really hard. I was struggling. I was quaking, all that stuff. But maybe later that day, you notice you’ve got a little bit more energy, a little more pep in your step, you’re carrying yourself a little bit differently.
Whatever you can do to tap into those benefits of how you feel as a result of the workout, and build that connection. That’s what’s going to help you understand that that sort of momentary discomfort is worth it.
So I never want to go into it being like, “I’m going to punish myself. I’m going to work so hard because I have to, because I need to make up for something.” None of that. That’s not what I’m talking about. But, you know, should every workout feel wonderful? I’m not sure. I don’t think so.
Virginia
I’m doing your strength training progressive workouts, and there’s something you said in it about, like, maybe as you’re lifting heavier weights, this move that we’re doing for a minute will only be a 45 second move for you, because it’s so hard to finish. That was really helpful to my brain. Because I think those of us with a lot of good girl, perfectionist conditioning, cab sometimes get trapped in, “I can only do the workout if I can do it right.” And so then that keeps me from pushing myself more. Do you know what I’m saying? Because I’m like, I need to be able to execute this flawlessly somehow. And the idea that part of progress is like, it might be harder and a little messy, was really helpful for me to understand that it’s not like a failing if it’s getting harder.
Anna
Yes, exactly. And I think there’s also, there’s so many levers we can pull to make things a little bit more challenging, whether it’s the position, the weight, the speed, the length of the set, you know, there’s a lot of different ways to make things more challenging.
This goes back to Pilates and something I talk about a lot there, which is you don’t have to do the hardest possible version of an exercise to get something out of it. In fact, for most people I would say, definitely myself included, I’m not going to choose the hardest version of every exercise because I’m forcing it, and I’m not necessarily using the muscles that I’m supposed to be using, because I’m compensating. Whether it’s I’m using my neck muscles to lift my head instead of my abdominals or whatever it might be. Maybe some of the progressive overload that you’re doing in a strength training context is I’m starting with a different version of the exercise that allow me to complete the movement, and maybe I work my way up to a slightly different version of the exercise, but there’s going to be a little discomfort there, like you’re not going to get there without experiencing some some positive, productive discomfort.
Butter
Virginia
Anna, do you have a Butter for us today?
Anna
Okay, yes, I have two Butters.
Virginia
Yay. Love multiple Butters.
Anna
I had to look up the name of these things because they’re like just these little adhesive, rubbery dots that you could stick on a cabinet or like a door frame, or even a toilet so things close silently.
Virginia
Oh, so your children can’t slam the toilet lid up and down all the time. Wow.
Anna
Okay, so I think there’s called some places call them cabinet bumpers or door buffer pads or sound dampening door buffers.
Virginia
Wow.
Anna
So it’s both, like, if your kid goes to the bathroom in the middle of the night, it’s not going to wake you up because they’re slamming the toilet seat.
Virginia
Totally.
Anna
So that’s amazing. But then also I even notice if I’m closing a door or or lifting the toilet lid or whatever during the day and it’s just silent. I think I’m a little bit of a sensitive person to sound and stimulation, so having having those little, tiny experiences throughout the day be very quiet is so calming. It’s very nice.
Virginia
That’s delightful.
Anna
I always have to say, I don’t love Amazon. So if you can go to your local hardware store or dollar store, I bet they’ll have them.
The other thing that has been really bringing me joy lately is I’m so much more into, like, holiday decor now that I have children than I ever was before. I have a little flock of bats taking off from my from the top of my TV during Halloween season. And they’re so delightful. And I just took them down, and the wall was looking very sad. So I started making paper snowflakes with my daughter. And I hadn’t done that since I was a kid, so had to Google, how do you make a paper snowflake? Like how do you fold the thing and cut it. And I discovered that there are all these little patterns, and I’m not crafty at all, but it will show you. Here’s the little folded triangle, and here’s the little pattern to draw on it, and then you cut it out, that beautiful, amazing shape. So being not crafty at all, I find this so satisfying. So now we have a little growing snowstorm above our TV of DIY snowflakes.
Virginia
We did that one year and put them all over our front window. And I’m like, why did we stop doing that? We should do that again! That was really very cheap and fun, and magical. And like, you can do five, or you can do fifty. You can, like, stop whenever, like, it’s very imperfect craft. You can just kind of do what moves you, which I love.
Anna
Yeah, like, oh, I have five minutes after I finished cleaning up the kitchen, and I’m just gonna make a snowflake. It’s cute. It’s not like me at all. And, I like that too.
Virginia
All right. It’s interesting you brought up toilets, because I’m gonna bring up toilets as well. I have a very practical Butter that’s really a PSA, which is this: If you are a household that currently has a toilet plunger, you can throw it in the garbage. Because what you really need is a toilet snake.
This has changed my life. I’m gonna just put my children on blast, they use an excessive amount of toilet paper. Like truly excessive. We have tried many strategies for not using so much. I’ve used guilt about climate change, like you’re killing the trees. But it is what it is. They are excessive toilet paper users, so clogging toilets is something that happens with some frequency in my house. So then I was like, okay, I’m going to start charging you guys for the plumber visits, because plumbers are not cheap! And I would try plunging, but it wouldn’t work. I finally bought this toilet snake off Amazon, but absolutely get it at your hardware store. And it’s so much more effective than a plunger for breaking up a clogged toilet. Game changer.
And it’s weirdly satisfying to use, too, I have to say.
Anna
Wow, I’m not gonna lie, Virginia, that’s a little gross, but I’m super happy for you.
Virginia
I maybe should have included a content warning.
Anna
I feel super lucky that I’ve never had to plunge a toilet. Maybe we just have really good toilets?
Virginia
I can tell you I do not. The last plumber who came to my house was like, “your toilets are terrible” and wanted to replace all of them. And I was like, I could spend hundreds of dollars, if not more, replacing all my toilets. Or I could buy this $30 toilet snake.
It’s this long metal coil thing, and it snakes down into the drain. And it’s actually less gross to use than a plunger, too—I’m sorry we’re really like in it now—but you stand further back, so there’s not the same splashing concerns. You just turn the handle on the snake. You get it all the way down, and you turn the handle, and it just burrows its way through the clog. I don’t know how it does it, but it does it, and it’s less gross to me to use than a toilet plunger, and weirdly satisfying. So that is what I have to say.
Anna
A lot of toilet optimization today. Your toilet needs to work for you.
Virginia
It’s something we’re dealing with all the time, especially as parents. Kids and toilets are kind of a nightmare combination sometimes. They’re just not great at it.
Alright, that’s probably the grossest Butter I’ve ever given but here we are! It was time. And I felt like you were someone I could do it with. We’re making your toilets silent and unclogged. And really, that’s all I want out of a toilet.
Anna
It’s heaven.
Virginia
Well, thank you for indulging that. This was so much fun. Tell folks where they can find you and how we can support your work.
Anna
I am on Substack at I also just recently started up a public Instagram for that, which is _howtomove. My my personal Instagram is really only for people I know, so don’t, don’t be offended if I don’t accept your follow request. I’m a little shy about it.
Virginia
Anna, thank you so much for being here. This was really delightful.
The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, and Big Undies.
The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.
Our theme music is by Farideh.
Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.
Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!
110 episoder
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